13 - PATRIOT with Alison Becker: Way Better than THE Patriot

We're BACK and resuming production!! Join the hilarious Alison Becker (Parks and Rec) in discussing the cult 2015 pilot. The Amazon Prime original aired in 2015 and is available on Amazon (Link)

Transcript

0:01

Hey everybody, welcome to Co Pilots. I am Sean Conroy and I'm Andy Secunda. On this podcast, we talk about TV pilots, the first episodes of television shows. Sometimes pilots become long running series. Others don't make it past that first episode. We're going to talk about all of them. The great pilots, the bad pilots, weird pilots, the forgotten pilots. We are TV writers, but it should be noted that we are the dumbest TV writers, you know, so all of these are just our dumb opinions. So dumb.

Andy: 0:32

Alison Becker, thank you so much for joining us. We're just going to roll right into this.

Alison: 0:36

Okay, thank you for having

Andy: 0:38

Alison, would you say your claim to fame is Parks and Rec?

Alison: 0:42

That's, yes, that's the most known thing I've I think.

Andy: 0:44

Right. Um, Shauna, how

Alison: 0:48

Mulway Tweet.

Andy: 0:50

Shauna Mulway, Mulway? Mulray?

Alison: 0:53

Nope.

Andy: 0:54

Mollway.

Sean: 0:55

is going to be the whole episode

Alison: 0:58

Yeah, yeah, We, you've already lost so many

Andy: 1:00

the kind of things we're going to be, uh, we're going to be cutting out.

Sean: 1:04

sorry. I was lost in thinking about that. Was it Moway or Mowray?

Alison: 1:07

No, I'm not going, we're not going back

Andy: 1:10

Uh, Sean, we're actually cutting some of that out. Sean and I had a discussion the other day and we're actually

Sean: 1:17

I'm not saying anything else.

Andy: 1:21

Cause he has a good improviser. We'll keep building on stuff. And I'm like, no, Sean, we're actually cutting that out.

Sean: 1:28

Andy does that in the middle of the show. Like, he's just like, we're going to cut that. And I'm like, yes, let's cut it. I'm the cut guy. You know, like that kind of stuff.

Alison: 1:37

Andy also does that in real life. Like sometimes I'll just be having conversations with him. He's like, we're going to cut that. I'm like, no, this is life.

Andy: 1:44

No, didn't happen. Did that really happen? There's no way of going back. Uh, Allison is also a, an incredibly successful writer, uh, both for TV and for film. and, uh, she is, uh, furthermore, the person who recommended in the first place insisted she beat Sean to it, even though Sean was also fan.

Kevin: 2:06

Mm-Hmm.

Andy: 2:07

uh, recommended patriot. The topic of today's show. I would say I, I almost owe as, as big a gratitude, a debt of gratitude to Alison for recommending that show as I do to Sean for recommending the wire. It's,

Sean: 2:21

Oh, bullshit.

Andy: 2:25

You know, you don't stack them, uh, equally, huh? You don't stack

Sean: 2:28

Come on, give me a fucking break.

Andy: 2:32

Sean.

Alison: 2:32

I just love that your debts of gratitude are not for like life saving things. It's just like for recommending TV shows.

Andy: 2:39

No, I recommend I, owe the debt of gratitude for the things that make me happy. Not anything from life. Um, anyway, uh, and she insisted, uh, I think much like Sean insisted for The Wire, and it's just, just immediately was just went to my top five, it's just.

Alison: 2:58

and it's a show that most people have never heard of.

Sean: 3:01

Yeah.

Andy: 3:02

other crazy thing, is that both of you know it, and now I know it obviously, and, you run into people who of course are just like, oh my god, that's crazy. And most people don't even know it. it's sardonic, it's heartfelt, it's badass, it's well

Alison: 3:23

funny.

Andy: 3:24

it's funny, it's just, it's got it

Alison: 3:26

beautiful.

Andy: 3:28

Yeah, it's, it's cinematically, you know, uh, crafted. just, uh, it's just a wonderful show.

Alison: 3:35

My theory is they, Shouldn't have named it Patriot.

Andy: 3:39

I think that's definitely a, a huge aspect. And the, the advertising for it off base.

Alison: 3:46

Non existent, yeah.

Sean: 3:47

Well, I I like how,

Andy: 3:49

advertising before it was recommended to me. And I was like, meh, that doesn't look That spy, that sardonic spy show doesn't look interesting to me.

Sean: 3:59

Um, I like how, first of all, the tech bros have fixed television by inventing all the streaming services. It's really working out great for know? Um, and also I love asking people if they've ever seen Patriot and everybody goes, ah, Mel Gibson's an anti Semite, you know?

Andy: 4:16

Yeah. actually saw and watched it in preparation for this. I watched an interview with Steve Conrad who, who wrote it and created it. and, uh, the woman who called him a genius at the beginning of the interview kept referring to it as the Patriot. Well, it was

Alison: 4:33

it you, it was originally. but it was originally called the Patriot.

Andy: 4:38

Oh, was it?

Alison: 4:39

It was. And then after they shot the pilot, they changed it to Patriot. But it is

Sean: 4:43

Let's change it a tiny bit. That'll clear everything up.

Andy: 4:48

assume that was a legal or a confusion issue. I

Alison: 4:52

I don't

Andy: 4:53

well,

Sean: 4:55

What's weird is Mel Gibson's movie was originally called Patriot and then they renamed it the Patriot. I mean, we're cutting that.

Alison: 5:04

We're cutting that.

Andy: 5:05

that. joke? The Mel Gibson joke? Yeah. We don't want to stir up the Mel Gibson supporters. whatever the case, I'll ask this first, uh, Alison, how did you come because it was such a, an unusual find? How did you come to Patriot?

Alison: 5:21

Um, Max, who I was dating at the time, it to me and he stumbled across it accidentally too. He, like somebody left a TV on and you know, when you finish a series, it just like automatically randomly picked that. And he was like, what is this show? It looks amazing. And then he got on me about watching it. And I was like, same thing. I was like, this doesn't look like something I'd be interested in. It's a bunch of dudes. There's not a lot of women in it. And I was just like, this, it's not my style. But he also just forced me to watch it and I was like, holy shit, beautiful, perfect. It's a perfect television show.

Andy: 5:55

It's perfect.

Alison: 5:56

And I I told you that I met Steven, that I stalked Stephen Conrad, right?

Andy: 5:59

Yes.

Alison: 6:01

Steven

Andy: 6:02

yeah, go ahead.

Alison: 6:03

Steven, Conrad, the creator is, it's just, he, he just made such a perfect show. And I reached out to him Twitter and I was Hey, I, love Patriot and he was like, Oh, that's so awesome. Do you want to get a cup of coffee? And I was like, yes. So I went to his office and met him and we just chatted about TV and film and just so accessible. And and I know what you're thinking, Andy, you're going to be like, thought it was a date. He did not think it was a date. He had a girlfriend and he talked about his girlfriend and I had a boyfriend. that did not want to date him. but

Andy: 6:38

dates with other people when they, when the other person

Alison: 6:40

I don't. Um, but it was, it was, um, it was very professional and. I was just so shocked at how like down to earth and accessible he Because Because no one watches the show!

Andy: 6:53

I know! That's the, that's, well, now I, now I think, I think it is, is slowly risen in in cult standing. So now I think that there is a little bit more of a following.

Sean: 7:03

I, I, uh, I reached out to him on Twitter and never never heard back.

Alison: 7:09

Well, they Twitter, I don't know if you heard what happened at Twitter.

Sean: 7:12

That's true. That's true.

Alison: 7:14

maybe

Sean: 7:14

get some stuff about Tommy Chong's So I'm excited about

Andy: 7:17

that, but Sean, you're in a very complicated polyamorous relationship and that's the reason, you know,

Sean: 7:23

you have no idea. There's diagrams, there's charts.

Alison: 7:27

The lines are

Sean: 7:28

Yeah.

Andy: 7:29

You didn't want to get involved Um, Sean, how did you come to Patriot?

Sean: 7:33

You know, I honestly don't remember, but I think I just read like some, Review of it somewhere from somebody I trusted. I I don't know if it was Alan Sepinwall who I always read and I'm like if he likes the show I'm gonna like the show but it was somebody that I read a oh, Let me try this and like you guys I was immediately think I probably watched the whole first season in two days,

Alison: 8:01

it's also a show that I have re watched many times

Sean: 8:05

I, I've definitely rewatched it it at least once. I don't know that I've rewatched it many times cause that seems crazy. um,

Alison: 8:12

fair.

Sean: 8:13

no, but I get it. There's so much to it. And like, even when I was just watching this episode, I kept being like, ah, I forgot about that. It's like moment after moment. That's so great. You know,

Alison: 8:25

that's what I mean. Like the second and third viewing, you're like, Oh, I didn't even notice that that connected to this. because so well crafted.

Andy: 8:32

I just want to point out, cause you know, Sean, you're slamming the tech feels like the algorithm also pointed you towards So I feel like the algorithm is actually working pretty well, guys.

Sean: 8:44

Yeah, Oh, absolutely. And it pointed me towards the, the new Lord of the Rings as well, which amazing if you I love it. It's so good. good.

Andy: 8:54

It's not a

Sean: 8:54

hundred percent.

Andy: 8:56

all right, let's talk a little bit, about. Stephen Conrad, Conrad, like Allison call him, um,

Alison: 9:05

tight. You could probably get them on the show, guys.

Sean: 9:09

You're talking about Coffee Steve Conrad?

Alison: 9:12

Yeah.

Andy: 9:13

he wrote the, it's a little bit unclear to me, I think that he went in with Gil Bellows, is both in the show and wrote the story with him. he was an incredibly successful, uh, screenwriter, um, he sold his first screenplay at like 19, I think it was made when he was 24, which was wrestling Ernest Hemingway, he's written The Weatherman, he wrote The Pursuit of Happiness with Will Smith, he wrote The Secret Life of Walter Mitty, uh, one of the things that's delightful about, uh, Conrad is, uh, He himself is just like some of those movies, you know, had good stuff in them. Some of them didn't. It's all about tone. Uh, you know, you don't have control as a screenwriter. generally speaking, and, he took this concept. To, Gil Bellows to FX, they pitched it, but one thing that's fascinating, cause I'm always, as I'm sure you guys are always fascinated with, like, how did they convince them to do this? And my thought sight unseen is I bet you, this happened that one. We might call it the AMC moment of Amazon. I'm sure there are other examples, but AMC, as I've said before, put on Mad Men and Breaking Bad in a moment. They were like, we're trying to build up our reputation. We'll just throw stuff on. It's like, Oh, you just threw on some of the greatest television shows ever made because you weren't holding the stranglehold on it. That, uh, that often happens in development and, and his own, uh, perspective, uh, comrades, that is exactly what happened. It was this brief moment. Not with FX, but with Amazon, where they were open to, Hey, let's hear a different voice. The, you know, let's explore something.

Alison: 10:58

also that he was able to have so It's Not just his script, but he was able to direct so much control.

Sean: 11:09

I, sorry. I I feel like when you watch this, you see his whole brain Like I find that's what's most compelling about it is it's like one and that's what makes it great is it feels like it's one person's vision of the story vision of the world vision of interesting and unusual and weird in our day to day world, like little Obsessions of his and so I think to to your point weird moment sort of slipped one through without attention There was nobody to blur it of making it

Andy: 11:44

the other aspect that I had skipped over was that he? sold it to FX And apparently they, like played songs and stuff in the pitch because that to Conrad's perspective is the thing that communicates tone

Alison: 11:58

Yeah.

Andy: 11:59

of the show better than anything, which I think is genius. but they sold it to FX, he wrote the script, and FX passed, and apparently Grace's follow up too. and then Amazon picked it up just because it was a finished script and I guess it communicated the idea better. And they, as we're talking about, were willing to roll the dice. they apparently characterized themselves as the filmmaker's studio. You know, one moment in time, and we're up for making ambitious and,

Alison: 12:28

I mean, just to be clear, ambitious television, new voice, still, still a white guy.

Kevin: 12:34

Well,

Alison: 12:34

I love his work, but just to be clear, they weren't doing anything crazy, uh, groundbreaking, but they were in, in, in that they were letting one person have control over something. And I don't think I'm, I mean, I'll tell you a story. Well, first of all, two Stephen Conrad's brother. is also in this world. plays Dennis, um, and Stephen Conrad refer he's ripped. Stephen Conrad refers to his brother as Conrad.

Andy: 13:07

Oh, that's hilarious.

Alison: 13:09

So yeah, I guess everyone just calls him the brother. but I don't think I'll be speaking out of turn when I say but I won't say the name of the actor that he said, um, yeah. was telling me, I was asking him about, and again, I don't think this is a spoiler, but I will just say there is a monologue at one point that, uh, in the that, uh, the character Leslie does that I think is one of the best monologues, if not the best monologue from television, way it's shot and the way it's It's absolutely incredible. And was asking so what'd you say?

Andy: 13:43

I concur. You didn't

Alison: 13:45

concurs.

Andy: 13:45

but I did.

Alison: 13:46

I did. I did. Um, but I was asking, uh, Stephen Conrad about that, and he said that in some of his earlier projects, like some of the ones you mentioned, he had a bunch, of when he didn't have as much creative patrol, where he was just the screenwriter and not he had written so much. similar speeches that were meant to be shot in take. And he was very frustrated with Certain a certain actor who could not learn it in and it had to be he was just like adamant. He's has to be one take. This has to be one take. The whole point of this is has to be one take. The actor has to know this, this dialogue so intimately. And everyone was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. yeah, yeah, And then he said he showed up on set and this actor was just like, yeah, we're gonna have to cut this up. Like, I didn't this. And

Sean: 14:27

I know who it

Alison: 14:28

just doesn't have the same power.

Andy: 14:31

Well, this is a, who do you think it was? I'm

Alison: 14:35

I'm not going to say,

Andy: 14:36

He just wants to say, okay, no problem. it kind of points out also and I, again, Conrad speaks to this, not just From the brain that, that created it, or the, the writer's room behind it, which is also an unorthodox process, the way he describes it, which is he has this, this think tank of younger people and friends and all these people with like sensibilities and they all just sort of think about genre and think about how to put twists on it. And it's just. just, it's this amazing creative lab that he's created. But in addition to that, I think you can feel that these actors, many of them who are these journeyman actors that have been in endless things, you know, Terry O'Quinn, it was Locke on Lost and Kurtwood Smith, you know, from RoboCop on down and all these people, you can feel them, even if they're in the smallest part, which often in Patriot will become a much larger explored part later. can feel them as actors, just, this is a perfect steak of a meal that he is serving them, and they are going to do their best job. They are going to approach it with the craft that he is approaching it with, uh, on the writing side. And it's not, it's not universal. Even though, you know, we've all worked. Uh, let's say near the top, um, of the

Alison: 16:01

top adjacent.

Andy: 16:04

uh, it's not, it's not constant that, that everyone approaches their job. Like, All right, I'm going to do the best job I can today, and everyone in the show, from the top of the call sheet to the bottom of the call sheet, is delivering a hundred

Alison: 16:18

nailed it.

Sean: 16:19

Do you, Do you think that has to do with him sort of having people in mind when he wrote stuff?

Alison: 16:28

I think so. I mean, like, with the example of his brother, yes, I I think he had to, but I don't know, I don't think that's true with every single part, I

Andy: 16:38

And with his brother, I think it's a perfect example of, uh, intuitively sense. Oh, I don't know who this person is and they're nailing it, which means he either got super lucky in the casting

Sean: 16:56

right.

Andy: 16:56

he knows this person. course he knows this person better than any brother. And it's just like, what a delight.

Alison: 17:04

so funny. So funny. So perfect. perfect. And he just gets better as the show goes on. That character just gets better. Is that a spoiler? He gets better.

Andy: 17:17

See now? What would you say, Allison? What would you say if someone

Alison: 17:21

I wouldn't want to know that but listen, I I

Sean: 17:25

for this character to get better. I wonder if this is the better he gets.

Alison: 17:30

oh, it's still in the back of my mind. He gets better.

Sean: 17:32

didn't seem better. Where's the better? Allison,

Andy: 17:36

I'm watching this

Sean: 17:37

show. This

Andy: 17:37

character stayed the same.

Sean: 17:39

He's great, but he's not better. It's hard to get better than great, but I'm waiting for it.

Andy: 17:44

it. Um, so anyway, Sean, do you want to jump in Yeah.

Sean: 17:50

so the very first thing we see is is just a definition what a a knock is, which is non official cover for CIA agent who goes into foreign countries to sort of do CIA things. So spy.

Alison: 18:10

A very Run of the mill A very run of the mill job that they have to do. In tandem with being a spy, They have to So everyone around them thinks that they are plumber or whatever.

Sean: 18:21

With, with less governmental protection accessibility than one would have if one was, S embassy somewhere, or one or one of the places that the CIA is often is often stationed. So I just, I'm always a fan of the written, explanation at the beginning of, of of the movie, you know, like a Star Wars kind Fargo or, this is information you need to know that we don't want to give in exposition.

Alison: 18:51

I always get stressed. I gotta be honest. I get stressed when they show text on screen. Cause I'm like, I want to read it all. I want to read it all. And I read it too fast. And then I didn't get any of it. So then I go back to read it slowly a second time, but I only make it halfway through. because I wasted the time reading the It's only me.

Andy: 19:06

Ultimate good student. What if the second page after the first page of information was a quiz?

Alison: 19:14

Oh, I would nail it.

Andy: 19:18

But

Alison: 19:19

But a peek, it's a peek into this very specific subset of a subset of government agents.

Andy: 19:28

And I'm sure it's been covered in media before in various forums, but such a gimme. It's such a great comedic

Alison: 19:39

Yes, Cause we have to watch this person do two jobs.

Andy: 19:43

Also, the most Like to our minds, mundane job that you have to nail or the country is at stake in their minds. Um, you, and you have to nail this mundaneness and we can follow him interacting with those people and also put cool actions, you know, intense spy shit in. It's such a, such a brilliant concept.

Alison: 20:07

It really is. And I wonder how he stumbled on it or discovered it himself, because you're absolutely right. He's. The main characters dealing with these absolutely life or death situations. Meanwhile, his boss is like yelling at him cause he took the wrong parking spot and he has to give them equal attention. Otherwise, it'll mess up his, the whole, the whole project.

Andy: 20:27

So wonderful. This is, this is again, is what I inferred because the story is by Gil Bellows and Steve Conrad. But he wrote everything after that and Gil Bellows didn't write that much, even though he, you know, has written journeyman actor. My theory is Gilbello's either with Steve Conrad came up with the idea or said, you know, I read about this thing. If you ever want to do anything about this and Conrad being, it seems the generous, uh, creative person that he is was just like, all right, I'll give you a story by on this.

Sean: 21:00

I had the same thought not to jump on the the Andy Secunda bandwagon, but I had the same that that would be why. Bellows was involved. And there actually is an article you can find online in mother Jones about. This part of of the CIA that there are knocks out Apparently there at the time the article was written, there about about 110 around the world. So, you it, does.

Alison: 21:24

Andy, are you one of them? Are you fronting as a television writer because you're actually a spy? Ha

Andy: 21:30

I mean, we're going to have to cut this because even just you

Alison: 21:32

ha.

Andy: 21:33

it going to throw a question on the situation.

Sean: 21:36

But, but here's the other thing about the thing being defined as a spy stuff at the beginning is it totally loads the first scene. Because otherwise, it's just a boring job interview, but because we know there's something else going on, incredibly tense in a you know?

Andy: 21:59

does the thing, and this is why it's really brilliant, uh, writing, even though they're using the trope of the, the, the text. Which I think is usually defensive. It frames everything immediately. It frames the entire story without giving away the, you know, other than sort of setting the tone because of the, the text itself is very specific font and it's little too verbose. it's just like everything that like the job, the real, the, the, the engineering job will also be, it kind of feels like that. So both sides have this, but it also just like, is immediately like, Oh, that's what I'm going to be watching.

Alison: 22:36

And both sides also have the theme of getting something from to B, getting something one place to another. you know, the piping all they're doing is following the movement of one thing. To another place and the whole, or the whole mission on the spy side is getting this one bag point A to point And I love that they line up that way.

Sean: 22:58

You're saying it's a metaphor in a in a sense.

Alison: 23:00

It's a metaphor in, an only sense, yes.

Andy: 23:05

Now who's the nerd? uh, so, okay, go ahead, john.

Sean: 23:09

Okay. we start with him running. He's just running. He's late for something. And then we see that he was late for his job interview. And he's in this room with a bunch of guys who are interviewing him about, and, and, you know, Ultimately, you know what it is, but it's just crazy jargon, which I'm always a fan of. Like it just is nonsense words as most people would be concerned. And these guys are so super serious And he's clearly fucking it up and has no idea what he's doing. supposed to

Andy: 23:40

Which just to address, uh, right off the top, because it is, you know, Allison is right. you know, uh, it was written by a white guy of a certain age. I do feel like immediately right off the bat, this is, a kind of, I don't even know if it's a kind of white guy or this is just all like, all the entire patriarchy as a whole, but it's just like, it's so great I think that the, the job itself is real, but I believe after, cause I kept feeling like, is this jargon real or not? I believe the jargon is, for the most part fake.

Alison: 24:18

I believe, I think the jargon is for the most part. Fake, but it is so brilliantly Just like, how many fillet walls would you put on the cracked or uncracked quad? And you're just, they're saying it so effortlessly. You're just like, wait, is, you're just so drawn into

Andy: 24:33

Again, going back to the performances and how it's delivered, it becomes poetry, even though it's the most dry, technical information. But the seriousness, And uh, you're in our world now, bro. So this is how we're gonna like that whole tone of, you know, all right, you, you were off base on that. And I think we're all in agreement that he was, and just that there's, there's a little bit of, uh, of a sort of racist swipe at the Asian character. There's a little bit of sexism in these meetings. It's all white dudes to me, even though. It's a heavily male wayed show, which was your first not having seen it perspective on the show, Allison. I think it really is like, it's a satire of this kind of

Alison: 25:21

it exactly,

Andy: 25:22

specific way.

Alison: 25:23

Exactly, that's exactly what it is. And that's why I was like, oh, okay, I'm in.

Sean: 25:28

Just to add one one more thing, as far as it being a pilot, uh, a big and lots of of characters in it. And I love that they don't care about going, this guy's great and this guy's great. And this guy's great. Like they're just a bunch bunch of dudes that scene. And it's clearly focused on main character. we sort of get to know all these guys later on as the show goes on instead of. Right away. And they are,

Andy: 25:58

I was surprised at how many of those characters are established in that

Sean: 26:03

Yeah

Andy: 26:04

in little snippets of dialogue that of course at the time it sort of washes over you

Sean: 26:08

Right, right?

Alison: 26:09

That pilot was shot like two years before the show, or at least a year. and a half, It was shot. It was, was some, or at least a year and a half. It was just a, the timing was all wild. So the fact that they were even still available and like, it's just, Yeah.

Andy: 26:25

That actually makes sense because one of the other things Conrad was talking about was that, and I remember this, and I don't know if you guys remember, when they were telecasting pilots, and then people were sort of, they would, based on metrics, they were getting, you know, Amazon was getting information.

Alison: 26:39

Yeah.

Sean: 26:39

Weren't they, Weren't weren't people voting on them at that time? Wasn't that a thing with Amazon?

Andy: 26:44

that in and of itself is kind of, I mean, I'm not necessarily against it, because then you can kind of at least, you know, get feedback directly from the audience. The thing that, the thing that, uh, that, that Conrad specified though, which is of course, perfect. And you kind of got to say understandable is it didn't matter how many people liked the show in the metrics. What mattered is how many people that bought a lot of stuff on Amazon, like the show.

Alison: 27:10

Oh my God. Oh my God. That's such a bummer.

Andy: 27:15

Steven.

Sean: 27:16

gotta be a way we can wring more money out of the world. Gary, we're gonna do it, it,

Andy: 27:23

but I am sort of surprised that it, it must have done well enough in those metrics unless they were just like, this is a good show. We have to go with

Alison: 27:30

I think that. It got, that it went to series or that it went to season two.

Andy: 27:34

it went to series because that makes sense that there was that much of a gap that they had the pilot. And then they did all this testing and there was a pause and all this stuff. I just wonder what that decision process was.

Alison: 27:44

In my mind, I can't remember if somebody told me this or it's just what I'm imagining. But in my mind, it was just an I love this I want it to come back. Because it's just didn't have the following. It didn't have and still doesn't have the to, To make, for, for, Mutt, to make money.

Sean: 28:03

if the, if the, if the voting was influenced by how much people buy on Amazon, do you think Steve Conrad was going on his computer everyday and just buying shit because he voted for his own

Alison: 28:13

He has warehouses full of just slippers. going to do with all this.

Sean: 28:21

Okay. So he comes out of the interview. He's pretty sure he fucked it up pretty badly because he did fuck it up pretty badly. And then he hears the, people inside talking and talking about how this other guy did better than than him. And realizes job that the world. So he's walking out of the building. I mean, that's the other thing. The setting of this is so great. The industrial, like, weird plant in the in the middle of nowhere. Not that, Not that Milwaukee is nowhere. Yeah, Yeah, exactly. it's just so, it it, it's like a dingy sort of grimy has definitely seen better days kind of of area, you know,

Andy: 29:07

it has like a purgatory like feeling, which is appropriate for his mental state. but there is. with the language there is this to the mundane ness and how it's shot. It's just so

Sean: 29:22

so as he's walking out he runs into the guy who is his rival for the job and they're walking and uh I mean, it's such a a great to end cold open because he this guy is his rival and he needs to do something about it, so he pushes him in front of a truck.

Andy: 29:48

So this is Marcus Toji, uh, playing the character Stephen Chichu,

Alison: 29:54

I accosted him once at an audition. I saw him at an once and made him take a picture with me.

Andy: 29:58

Oh yeah. That's definitely one. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta get the,

Sean: 30:01

I I watched, uh, I watched several episodes of West wing over the that long was like a high And it was one of those things where I was like, holy shit. there he is. You

Alison: 30:13

Steven.

Sean: 30:14

Yeah.

Andy: 30:16

That moment. Which is, by the way, under four minutes into the show. And all of us being professional writers, and something we've talked about before, the, the amount of pressure, um, on a show, for you to establish the character's motivations, establish their likability, establish their competence,

Alison: 30:35

And keep it entertaining.

Andy: 30:37

Keep it entertaining. In the first Few minutes of this show, we see this character be late, blow an interview, and push apparently, a very apparently sweet and innocent person, who is more competent than him, in front of a truck. And everything that Sean said about him saving the world, we find that out as the show is doled out, but we don't know any of that at this point, we just know this guy. And it's also, the, one of the things that's impressive about this show, is the violence in it is not like fun spy violence it you really feel the fun

Alison: 31:14

Mm hmm.

Andy: 31:15

truck hits him

Alison: 31:16

yeah

Andy: 31:16

it's like this is This is awful. But of course it's brilliant. It's just like you're starting your show there with your main character

Alison: 31:28

It's, it's amazing. And they do it they do it also the the steven character. Um, really I think opens the door to the Most absurdist of all the storylines, I think the one that's I think least grounded in reality Um, and it's still just balanced and perfectly done, but would you agree yeah, would you agree that the, again, I don't want to give you agree that the Stephen thread throughout the series? I think is grounded in

Sean: 32:04

Well, I think it's, I think what you're talking about, if I'm, if I'm not mistaken, is the, is the idea that this guy is him memory is slowly coming back and there, This is all in the pilot. He's there uh, correct his work. I forget what even the work

Alison: 32:25

Right. but even the, Even the point that somebody would bring in, the, The part that I, when I say it's not grounded, I would bring in interviewee who is now, has a severe brain to correct the work of the actual employee, like, that is not grounded in reality, but I'm not saying that as a knock, I'm saying that, not pun I'm saying that as That is, adds to tone of this show is slightly And that storyline really makes that absurdity clear in a really cool way.

Andy: 33:02

There is an element that I kind of, and maybe this is just, uh, as we call it in the geek world, headcanon, that I am explaining. But, uh, There's part of it that a lot of the things like that, that are like, oh, well, he would be fired or he would be gone. Some of that comes from that Leslie Claret played by Kurtwood Smith, just this.

Alison: 33:24

It just, that's Some of the best acting ever seen.

Andy: 33:27

I absolutely agree. and, uh, he's doing, he's going to his, his toolbox. Like Kurtwood Smith has been playing this on that seventies show. He's been playing variations of the ultimate intimidating authority dad figure in various different things. So he like has that, and this is this refined version. And one of the, one of the refinements. is Kurtwood Smith is justifiable in everything that he's doing. Lake, Lakeman is, is screwing up every step of the way. The point I was trying to get to is it feels like, uh, some of this is government nepotism, like there are hands behind the scenes. That are making sure that he stays in place. Obviously his sort of resume was rigged and his recommendations were rigged. But I feel like my headcanon is there's a lot of stuff going on that we're not seeing that is keeping him in that Which may not be true, So that to me leavened some of the, the absurdity of it.

Alison: 34:34

Absolutely. Yeah.

Andy: 34:36

And so they're bringing to chew back in. It's like, all right, well, we're stuck with this guy, so we can't fire him. Let's just bring the other guy back in is, was my reasoning.

Sean: 34:48

also those moments, one of those, like. You're watching something and holy shit. Like it's just so over the top in that moment when he pushes him in front of the Like I, I never felt like, Oh, I know what's going to going to happen here. such a big, It was such a big move that I, that I also was was like, okay, I'm in a hundred percent I don't have to wait till Andy's episode for her.

Andy: 35:18

How many people did I have a theory that absolutely true. I've never done a lot of great shows. They don't click in until episode four, which Sean has been fighting me on. Uh, but this episode, this show absolutely immediately. I was like, Oh my God, this may be my favorite show. what, how many people do you think watched it? And we're screw this for, that seems like reasonable. Sean, what's your guess? She's at four, four people.

Sean: 35:47

I always go over, so I'm going to say five, but I actually feel like if you're somebody who found this show and you got to that moment, there's no way you could just walk away away at that. Agreed.

Kevin: 35:59

You

Sean: 36:00

mean if the robot overlords decided you

Andy: 36:02

should watch this show

Alison: 36:03

Yeah.

Sean: 36:04

there's always hands behind the scenes That's my head canon is that the people who watched it there was pulling strings no, I just feel like it's it's such a perfect cold open because you said it establishes everything about the main character and the tone of the show and everything. and then it also Story wise makes you go, Holy shit. This guy's in huge trouble. What's going to happen next? And you want to see, you know, um, and then we get a bunch of exposition about what's going on, which again is hard to do, but it's done in kind of a cool way because it's, the sound of a newscast slow motion

Alison: 36:47

was killed

Sean: 36:48

what the newscast describing. As a big problem. We

Alison: 36:53

The guy that they wanted to

Sean: 36:54

some nuclear shit going on in Iran, which I believe is, is still the case. case. If I'm

Alison: 36:59

Right.

Sean: 37:01

there's all kinds of, uh, him have this. Let's not let him have this, whatever the case, there's an election coming up in Iran, and this is trying to get to get involved

Alison: 37:11

The good guy was killed in the crash.

Sean: 37:15

Or the guy, yes, The guy that they wanted to to win. The guy that

Alison: 37:18

they wanted to win the election is killed on the crash.

Sean: 37:21

Who's going to keep Iran from having nuclear weapons. Right. the bad guy is is going to, is going to, so they need to stop that by doing CIA things, which is what they get uh, later. And this is where we see. Terry O'Quinn as Tom Tavner calling and getting his son, his son to come over. He's like, cancel your plans and get over And, uh, we start to, then he has his conference with a woman. See, again, I love the spy shit. Like, they're not in an office anywhere. They're just on a weird balcony backlit like Andy is right now. Having a conversation. I set the backlighting.

Alison: 38:02

it was an homage.

Andy: 38:03

That's right.

Sean: 38:06

But we find out that the guy that we've already seen is the son of this other guy and that he's a spy and he works for the CIA superior and it's a little weird. I mean, it's just such a great and it, never felt there's so much information there and it never felt clunky to me, which is, which is where you get in

Alison: 38:25

Yeah, you're right. And I don't know, I like, I'm so, I respect it so much. I'm also so jealous of the writing because it, so much but you're never, and even for me, like the first time I watched it, there was so much going on that I was like, I don't, if you wanted me to give, write a book report on this show, what happened? I don't know if I could time I watched it, because there's so much going on, but I couldn't stop watching It It was just done in such an artful way.

Andy: 38:55

Well, that's the other thing is that they have, uh, it was a term that that Conrad and his people have that they use something that's sort of just general plot exposition. You don't have to follow that's from team America. And then they combine it with Treadwell from from born identity. And it's basically just like, this is just stuff, we're gonna, we're gonna get it all right, but you don't need to process it.

Sean: 39:17

right?

Andy: 39:18

and, and this is exactly like that. The only thing that is the main information that you get from that Terry O'Quinn scene, also just breathtaking in this series, Yes. uh, that he's basically admitting that his son is a little bit off the rails. He's like, he's good, you know, he's good at the job, but he's been singing these songs that are, you know, basically revealing some of his mission, which obviously is not good for a spy. And then he sort of has the side, like dad thing of like, the songs are actually pretty good.

Alison: 39:48

I mean, maybe I'm biased. I'm his dad. I

Andy: 39:52

was wonderful. It's like, I kind of like, it's hard to get a sense of him and they take their time in this pilot. So later you see the, you see him singing with his son and there's this bond between them. You're kind of like, Oh, that kind of origin story reverse explains why he would, you know, be like, the songs are kind of good. My question to you guys right off the top, and this might be tough without spoilers, but do you feel like he is putting John in this, in this mission because you think he's, he thinks he's the best? He'll be the best for it? That he can control him, or that he's trying to help him. Like, he wants to be connected to his son, and he he just is better if he's in the field.

Alison: 40:45

I think it's it's all of them.

Andy: 40:47

Right, right. And,

Alison: 40:49

know, it, it really brings up they also get into this delicate dance, which they do in the first episode. Not even delicate, just an outright dance of the, the relationship between the two brothers how, you know, John is really the alpha and Ed is just so in awe of his brother. And the, the, scene in the, pilot where Terry O'Quinn asks, um, Michael Chernus about the incident from when they were little kids is such a, such a, funny and cool and interesting way. for Terry O'Quinn to ask his son, because basically he's asking that question because he wants to know if this guy will put his life on the line for his brother. That's what he wants to know. He's like, will you, he can't outright ask him your life on the line for your brother? Will protect your brother at all costs? Instead, he says, did you break my. camcorder and he's like, no, I didn't. And that

Sean: 41:48

so committed to the

Alison: 41:49

oh, He's so committed to the lie. And what a great way to get that And that is something, like, as a writer that I love. It's like, we need to get this information to the audience. We could do it in a really boring way. or we could do it in a really fun, roundabout way that's so interesting to watch.

Andy: 42:07

What's

Sean: 42:08

oblique angle to

Andy: 42:09

to come in at? I totally agree with you and I think it also is like, it's a great way that the opening credits, which we skipped over, is this like Super 8 ish. kind of old footage of them as kids kind of playing and shooting and doing the stuff that's like with this eerie folk music that's again a perfect tone

Alison: 42:28

Yeah.

Andy: 42:29

it's like what kind of spy show is this and and it ties back with the camcorder of them playing as kids busting the camcorder and he's watching like why am I watching this? I was wondering also if there's some level and I think that what you're saying is probably more dead on, but I wonder if there was some level in that scene of Terry O'Quinn testing, are you still CIA material that you're just going to lie straight down the line and not, not blink, as

Alison: 42:57

it was more

Andy: 42:58

it's more about protecting. Yeah,

Alison: 42:59

protecting, protecting his brother, but maybe it was because, it, because the otherwise he wouldn't, he didn't get the outcome he Right. Right.

Sean: 43:08

Um, so this is also where we find out that the the son is in Amsterdam and then we, then we over there and he is singing folk songs. I, to your point, Andy, I think it is about, Sure. this guy is great at being a spy, but the father also knows that he's kind of mentally unraveling because of what what he's been through, which we find out a lot more about later, including murdering an And that's really undone him. And, uh, so I think it is about

Alison: 43:43

accidentally murdering.

Sean: 43:44

yes, Yes. it was, he got bad information. Um, he sings a song about why are there mail maids in Egypt or whatever it is and nowhere else. Uh, but, uh, but you know, this is an opportunity for him to reclaim his sanity and his, know, sense of himself. Because he feels feels so badly about having you know, um, so we get to see him just getting in and riding his bike and singing songs hilarious

Andy: 44:18

to talk about, um, uh, Michael Dorman for a second. Just such a difficult part and so compelling. And that scene you're describing is like an example of that, of like, there's this softness and vulnerability and like, when you see his joy it makes you so happy. 90 percent of the show is him with the smile. He's got this blank faced weight on him.

Alison: 44:43

like when he when he sees his brother, when he's high and he looks up in he sees his brother, this is the smile. You just like feel it all over your whole body.

Andy: 44:53

Yeah. also, uh, he's from New Zealand, which I

Alison: 44:57

Yes!

Andy: 44:58

idea because the other thing that, that, uh, Sean and I know him from is for all mankind is Gordo. another, you know, just

Sean: 45:06

Which He's also great. in.

Andy: 45:08

Yeah. He's also great in and a different part.

Sean: 45:11

very different.

Andy: 45:12

Yeah. Although

Sean: 45:13

Um,

Andy: 45:15

have you seen for all mankind

Alison: 45:16

I have not.

Andy: 45:17

Oh, right up your alley. You would

Alison: 45:18

Alright. It's got man in the title. So it must be,

Sean: 45:24

this is also to me, this was also the first moment. I guess there was a couple couple of them. Uh, this sequence, first moment where I'm watching it and I'm becoming aware of how really, out of the way they've gone with cinematic uh, shots, like the shot of him sitting on the the bench. In the park, it's an overhead shot and there's all these different paths leading in different directions and the cop is just such a fucking cool thing. And and looking at the birds, I don't know. It was just that whole sequence was so impressive

Andy: 46:03

and, to your point about like the when you're listening to the newscast, but you're watching the slow motion helicopter blade sort of spin across and in shots like you're describing. And there's tons of shots in this. that are either, uh, long oners, just one shot which is what the end of the show is. And, or, you're watching one person in focus and then there's another person out of focus that's talking. And all of this really reads very cinematic and very indie film. Like, not even, not even like, big Hollywood film.

Alison: 46:35

Right!

Andy: 46:36

odd visual choices.

Alison: 46:39

Yeah, some of it is like the, like that shot that you're describing, Sean, looking down. It feels very Wes direct direct shot and it's, but you're right, it feels like an indie film.

Sean: 46:52

so then we see Edward canceling his plans with a a little kid who is ostensibly his, I don't they called it, friend and in the

Alison: 47:02

Beltway buddy.

Sean: 47:03

Yeah. Yeah. Beltway buddy. establishing a bunch of characters. We see Edward, we see Tom go by the school to see John Lakeman's wife, who he hasn't seen in a long time and sort of say, He's going to be back, but then he's going to leave again. So just be chill, you know? see in that character, the difficulty of being involved with somebody who who does the stuff This main how hard that And that's played

Andy: 47:32

by Kathleen Monroe is Alice's wife. And 1 of the things that Conrad talked about that really essential for the show is that they, they sort of in trying to put twists on some of the tropes. You know, the, the classic one being with the spy is the big womanizer. Um, they wanted to have, he'd be thoroughly committed and in love with his wife. and it's so heartbreaking because of course, if you're in that position and you're a spy and you're constantly overseas in danger and you can't get in touch and you can never relax, even, you know, when you're home, it's like when they're together, it's so beautiful. And you feel so, it's such pain for John. No, it is. That he's separated from her.

Alison: 48:15

He's just constantly pining for her. And like, you know, at one point he's covered in blood and just calls his wife and is like, did you set the alarm? It's so great.

Andy: 48:27

and that's, and, and even that character, her character, the easy way to go, I think would have been that the spouse would have been like, is bullshit happens, whatever and it's this slow burn to she trusts the father She knows he has to do whatever he has to do, and it's just this slow burn to any reaction from her that kind of makes you feel just bad for everyone. You immediately have your sympathy for everyone in the situation.

Sean: 48:57

so then we see the, oh, so we, we've already talked about this a little bit, but the father assigns Edward to go to go to Amsterdam and bring his brother back And that's when we see that beautiful of looking up and seeing his brother and just smiling and you feel the, the between them. And then And then we come to one of the things that again is such a holy shit moment, but it's so awful, but also so funny to me. Yeah. Which is the grandmother reading, uh, uh, Mary Poppins to the Beltway buddy and saying she flew with an umbrella. And then that scene of him marching across the dining room or whatever with the

Alison: 49:39

Oh my god, my heart was just like, UGH! UGH!

Sean: 49:44

jumping off the building is Incredible. Incredible.

Andy: 49:49

So upsetting. And they don't shy away. The kid breaks his, his ankles

Alison: 49:53

Yeah! It's

Kevin: 49:54

and his

Andy: 49:54

feet. And. He's in a wheelchair the rest of the episode. It's just like, that's a child! One of the main characters! of his fuck up, a kid broke his ankles. That's like in

Alison: 50:08

episode one.

Sean: 50:09

Yeah.

Alison: 50:10

so dark. It's so dark. It's, but you're right, it's like, how can we make all of this even sadder?

Sean: 50:16

And yet I found it hilarious at the same same time. Yeah. You know?

Alison: 50:20

Cause he doesn't

Sean: 50:21

Which is like, which is like right in my wheelhouse is incredibly dark and and incredibly funny at the same And to what we were talking about before coming at exposition oblique angle. We then see, uh, uh, the child's mother called Edward on the phone and is screaming at him about how he left the kid with the grandmother and said, one of the things she says is, I can't believe you're a congressman when you would do something like that. I mean, she says it much more, much less directly than I did But that's where we kind of find out what this guy's job is and why he's involved in all in all this which Again to me, I was like, cool. Yeah, Yeah, Um, and so John doesn't want to leave to leave because he has, he has a bull riding contest

Alison: 51:12

he's gotta win that cash prize. That's how he's been, uh, keeping himself afloat.

Andy: 51:16

And he has this plan. He's going to bicycle across Europe. He's going to bring Alice with him. It's this, it's this beautiful thing that really, even at this point in the series, we're just like,

Sean: 51:28

He wants, he want,

Andy: 51:30

traffic. We're already rooting for him.

Sean: 51:32

wants to look at

Andy: 51:33

at the Spanish birds. Yeah. And, so when in that scene, which is also shot very in kind of almost a Sam Raimi shot of him on the bull and the brothers watching, it's so subtle, he releases the bull and intentionally loses.

Alison: 51:50

Because of course he could win. He's from Texas.

Andy: 51:51

He's from Texas. All these other people are from, where are they at that point? Is that Amsterdam?

Alison: 51:56

They're in Amsterdam, but they're like, there's a guy from the

Sean: 51:58

there was a British guy who went up before him, him. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy: 52:02

So whatever

Alison: 52:03

But that's his choice. It's his choice to say, I choose this. Life of chaos and danger, Which I think he's addicted to. I don't know why at this point,

Sean: 52:14

Well, but but I also saw it as him going, I do want to go home and see my wife right now. Like, It's like he to go back there and you know, he is from Texas, know, it turns out out Texas is a bit of a a mixed bag because you do learn how to ride bulls, but they also try to ban methopristone for the entire mean, there's all all sorts of

Alison: 52:34

Let's talk about Texas for two hours.

Sean: 52:37

Um,

Andy: 52:38

Sean likes to dig in on the deep political issues right in the middle of our TV pilot podcast.

Sean: 52:43

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think we live in the real world, even though we spend a lot of time in in the imaginary world, you know.

Andy: 52:49

Not me. I'm going right back to Lord of the Rings after this. um, yeah, I, I really feel like it's. it's. tied to stuff about the father and obligation and like, he has so much weight on his shoulders the whole time and the understanding of what he, you know, he believes what his father believes of like, I'm doing this for the safety of the country and maybe the world. Um, but I think it's mostly that that is what his dad thinks. So it's this weird, which of course, his father is kind of using against him emotionally, consciously or unconsciously. And so I think that's all loaded into when he releases the bull, which is crazy.

Alison: 53:34

Yeah.

Andy: 53:35

like, how much would you have to spell out if this was, you know, more of a network pilot?

Alison: 53:42

Oh God. I couldn't imagine. Can you imagine network notes all over this? It would have ruined it.

Andy: 53:47

It would have been a totally different show. But frankly, even anywhere, because, and frankly, their perspective would have been reasonable. It's just like, you're taking a big chance, and like, you know.

Sean: 53:59

Is it possible, is it possible for the main character not to have assassinated an innocent person by accident? No, no, it's not.

Andy: 54:12

not. No. What What if instead he helped him from being hit by a

Sean: 54:17

he starts to shoot him. Then he helps him clean the room. and then, okay. So then we go back, we're back in the States with the dad briefing John. And again, it's a exposition But it's really enjoyable to watch because they just go through a book like they're playing frisbee They're hanging out by the pool. They, they interrupted by speculating about Edwards like I think that's where the father goes That's his kid, right? Like

Alison: 54:44

Yeah.

Sean: 54:45

he

Alison: 54:46

The Beltway buddy, It's probably his son. Right,

Sean: 54:49

Right, Um, but in the meantime, we get explanations of what he's and why he has to go to Luxembourg because Luxembourg is the only country in Europe that does business with Iran, All this stuff. That's going to have a huge impact later on. they sing together. That's sort of the end of that sequence what, what we talked about before that the dad and him are singing together. Um, And then we're back in the, in the interview day, which happened, obviously we're doing a time jump back interview day and he has to give them a, urine sample so that they can decide trustworthy.

Alison: 55:28

But of course, he's been doing nothing but smoking weed in Amsterdam. Of course.

Andy: 55:33

Um, and the other thing, just in terms of the structure, that's, it's so, and I wonder to a certain degree, this is from, uh, from Conrad's experience writing movies. It's so sure handed, the leap time wise. And that we're going to be on board and figuring it out and everything's fine. And it's so effective to have it slowly lay out information and Um, but yeah, then he's where we, uh,

Sean: 56:03

well, but I also want to just mention that before we get to the bathroom, we get just for a second to the character of Jack Birdbath, who was A cop who accidentally shot some, shot a child, I think, right? Wasn't that his, his problem? And he, uh, so we, we only just see him. We don't even. doesn't have an interaction with woman in the office who's clearly taken with him.

Alison: 56:31

She's disgraced. He's disgraced.

Sean: 56:33

disgraced.

Alison: 56:34

disgraced.

Andy: 56:35

So just wanting to say it, just want to be the first person that says it.

Sean: 56:39

yeah, Uh, but it totally loads. the next time we see Jack Birdbath, Um, so then we're in the bathroom and that's the scene where he meets Dennis for the first time. And it's

Alison: 56:56

And Dennis has to give his pee for America.

Sean: 57:00

And that, I thought that was really interesting because it's like, He basically tells him the truth about Like he's this super secret spy. And he goes, he basically goes, I'm a super secret spy with dirty urine. So I need to take yours to save the world, you know? And,

Alison: 57:16

but he's also, it's, it's the judgment that he's making on this guy, which he nails, obviously he's like, this guy is going to be so excited to help with spy shit that he is only going to be on my no matter what and he's right.

Andy: 57:29

Yes, and it's a stance that is consistent with the Lakeman character or the John that, uh, that he will, he's always put in these situations, either by his own screw up or by someone else's screw up. he's like, all right. I have to solve this situation in possibly the darkest way possible, or maybe it'll be an easy way or whatever, but I have to solve it. And so, he does the thing that no other spy would do, which is, this is the deal. that's the only way I'm gonna get out of this, otherwise this thing's over anyway. So I might as well take the chance. And then it works. But of course there's always repercussions to every decision he makes like that.

Alison: 58:09

And I want to say about screw ups in general, there are so many tiny and comical screw ups that are done by random government officials who are just supposed to be like prepping John And they cause such huge problems. Like they gave him the interview. So that's why he was late. they did terrible out if he was going to fly private or commercial. And like these little things that just little mishaps ruining everything

Sean: 58:39

Which is by the fact that his, uh, I forget what his getaway had bad when gave him bad also got arrested, which is what what put him in, Foreign custody for a like they're all just a bunch of total,

Andy: 58:59

which contributes to his trauma because he was tortured.

Sean: 59:02

Right.

Andy: 59:03

it's just like, there's a lot of things that that's the fucking genius of pushing this guy into traffic at the beginning is that then the pilot and it's just the beginning is a revelation of all of these little details. that make us go, well, he was first, he was tortured. He killed an innocent person and it weighs on him in a way that it doesn't again, an interesting twist from usual action spy movies that it's like every death weighs on him or every, you know, every time he hurts someone, it's like the worst thing ever for him. Um, so when he kills the, the mail maid later, it's just like this thing that's staying in his brain and he has to sing songs about it to try and get it out. Um, and you're totally right, Allison, his, his, uh, his contact that's setting him up for the, for the, for the flight overseas. Is is so perfect to me and it's so such just like a small little character

Alison: 1:00:00

Yep.

Andy: 1:00:00

And it's like so he's so obnoxious And all the questions john asked of like well if it's not a private plane Then this is gonna they're gonna check my bag because he's traveling, you know, he's transporting money at that point They're gonna check my bag and And, uh, and the, guy's like, we already did the research. This is what it's like, this annoying thing. And who amongst us has not faced that situation where we even thought ahead, three steps. We're like, well, this is the thing that could go wrong. and I'm going to ask you about this. And then that person is obnoxious about it and they're wrong. It's just like, so

Alison: 1:00:39

But then to add another layer onto it, there's another contact who this episode, but who give him the information about where the, the Barros brother took the bag. he's trying to be like, John, listen to me. These guys are Brazilian. And he's like, I don't care. I don't need their backstory. Brazilian, they know martial arts. And like, it's so funny. Cause now we have a contact. John is so used to these contacts being such dummies that he's like, buddy, I don't need that information, but he really does need that It's so great. great.

Andy: 1:01:12

And then the one other thing, go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, no, you go. The one other thing to tie it back to is just, because of the bad information, he's late to the initial meeting.

Kevin: 1:01:23

Yep.

Andy: 1:01:23

Because he's late to the initial meeting, and the dialogue really spells this out, that they're like, I don't know which one, this guy's got a great resume, great recommendation, Lakeman does. But the other guy really knows his stuff and he was on time. And so that is the turning point,

Alison: 1:01:39

Yes.

Andy: 1:01:39

the bad information, which leads to him having to push him into a truck. If you, if you're going in John's head of like, I have to accomplish this mission. And he doesn't like. So even from John's perspective, I didn't want to do this. I was put in this position.

Sean: 1:01:57

Um, want to go back to what you were saying and because that was what I took away from the bathroom is like, he is just constantly confronted with incredibly but he has the license to do whatever he needs to do to solve including. Not to, you know, say this, but a license to kill. If he needs to kill somebody, he can just kill them. And if he needs to tell somebody the truth, he can do that. And we're just gonna see that over and over again. Like, how am I gonna fix this thing that's right in front of me right And I was also thinking that in terms of metaphor, if, if the, mi, this show, our podcast is the mission. Andy is the John Lakeman and I'm the government official because Andy is always like, What if this happens? What if we do this? And I'm like, it's fine. Don't worry about it. It'll be fine. um, show,

Andy: 1:02:54

either person can be wrong constantly.

Alison: 1:02:56

And that is the only overlap you have with John Lakeman. Well, I don't

Andy: 1:03:00

know. We both have icy blue eyes. We're both, uh, very, uh, Uh, Certainly both worn down by life is more legitimate reasons than I do.

Sean: 1:03:11

And then we have another, another great, what I love in this, it's just a great entrance cause we met this guy before briefly. And then while, while John is screwing the top on the urine. A nightstick just rolls out of the stall very ominously. and it's such a long moment of just a nightstick rolling across the floor of the

Alison: 1:03:39

Because he just audibly admitted that he's government

Sean: 1:03:43

Right. And then Jack Birdbath comes out and says, basically, I and John is in trouble because this guy knows everything And he's disgraced. So what's he going to do with that that knowledge?

Andy: 1:03:56

also the great detail that is consistent with a lot of different characters, which is Jack Bird Beth is incredibly intimidating and ominous. And, and it seems like a threat when the nightstick rolls out. And, but at the same time, he's pulling up his as he's coming out. it's clearly was a mistake that he dropped uh, the nightstick. But he's still intimidating. again, uh, perfectly cast.

Alison: 1:04:23

Perfectly cast.

Sean: 1:04:24

Then we see, uh, Edward in his meeting with, forget who, but some secretary of something or other, who's going to make somewhere. And all he cares badge. He wants an attaché badge. And the guy's like, I don't think that's that's a thing. Well, can I make one? So that, the guy's like,

Andy: 1:04:42

you can, it'll be weird if you do that.

Sean: 1:04:48

and then we go through him taking this bag money flight and to be able able to, uh, on a private jet and then he's about to take it on a commercial jet and you know, to, he has to check the bag and that becomes an issue when somebody on the other side in Brazil finds the money steals it. and even there, that character is so tiny, but before we see money, we learn that everybody makes fun of him of him because he's, he's just a you know,

Andy: 1:05:23

I don't know. I'm curious what you guys take is on this, but just going back to the original point of like, that a lot of the, the white guy patriarchy stuff, even though it's, it's heavily white guy, uh, uh, Wade satire and commentary. That character who's Brazilian, um, is a small character, but is dignified. He has a story, he has brothers. He's being Harassed by these people, uh, that he works with. it's just like, it's a, it's a brief but full character.

Alison: 1:05:56

has his own little arc, yeah. Like when He's driving away on the scooter. you just see this. It's so funny.

Andy: 1:06:05

great. And the other thing I wanted to say about that moment is Because, you would think that the classic, even if you were doing a reversal on the spy thing, it would be like, ah, he's actually an idiot. He's a bumbling, you know, Clouseau. even in that moment, John saw this situation coming. When the bag doesn't come out, he knows something's up.

Alison: 1:06:25

He knows where to go, what to do.

Andy: 1:06:26

He knows what to do. He sees the other guy with the bag, doesn't hesitate, runs after him, and peels off, doesn't even keep, right, he peels off and bashes the other security guy in the head so he can immediately check the guy's information. it's like instantaneous. He's a professional, and like all professionals, he sometimes screws up badly or it is screwed up for him. So it really grounds it in reality, even as he's being a badass.

Sean: 1:06:53

and it's a great demonstration of like, this guy knows every do, and he's allowed to do whatever he needs to do.

Alison: 1:07:01

he's weighing the consequences, constantly doing the okay, yep, it's totally worth it to bang this guy over the head, keep going.

Andy: 1:07:10

These are also a lot of things that also would apply to me.

Alison: 1:07:14

No.

Sean: 1:07:15

you are the, uh, uh, John Lakeman of the podcast.

Alison: 1:07:19

No.

Sean: 1:07:22

Uh,

Andy: 1:07:23

Ruining Patriot for Allison. I can't

Sean: 1:07:26

watch this.

Andy: 1:07:27

I keep thinking about Secunda now.

Sean: 1:07:30

Uh, so then we get all the information about where the, where the bag is, figure out who Edgar is when he's on the phone with, uh, states who's information who like you said is trying to convince him like be careful He has five brothers and they all know Brazilian jujitsu. jitsu. So just you know um, and that's when when Dennis comes in and tries to convince him that he could use his help is just

Alison: 1:07:59

agree. And just Disrobes show how cut

Sean: 1:08:04

I'm ripped. I'm ripped, man.

Alison: 1:08:05

funny. And then turns around. It's great. It's just a perfect thing. It's an

Andy: 1:08:10

interesting thing. I'm sure there are a lot of other examples other shows and movies we could, we could point to, but just like, it's an interesting thing. Cause when I saw that scene originally, that was the moment where I was like, Oh, he's friends with this guy. Or he knows this guy. There's no reason you would take this much time with this character. Unless this, the creator was doing this person a favor. And I think it's partly true. He's clearly wants to give the ball to his brother because he's his brother, but he also wants to give the ball to his brother because he knows exactly what his brother can do. His brother is going to nail it. His brother is going to be an incredible asset to him in the show. So usually, when that kind of move is made, either from nepotism or whatever it is, it's sort of just like, well, that person kind of stands out they didn't, they're, they really shouldn't be the guy. In this case, that should be the guy.

Sean: 1:09:04

yeah, and it's also a really important character in terms of how everything starts to unravel after this thing happens because, it's all set up as a mystery, and Dennis is key to how things start is what happens in the next scene When. Dennis is following him out on the street and says, I can help you. And he says, if you don't get the fuck away from me,

Andy: 1:09:36

And the three things about that are one, it shows how instantly ruthless John can be. It's not, again, as an example of the violence, it's not like. Uh, it's kind of funny. It's just like, it feels like, oh, Jesus, he fucking stabbed

Alison: 1:09:51

Yeah, he's like, I like you, Dennis. I don't want to stab you.

Sean: 1:09:54

can't believe it.

Alison: 1:09:55

But I give you one more chance. And he does it again. he stabs him. Just right there.

Andy: 1:09:59

It's not like, so, so that's funny. And it's also hilarious that Dennis is like But then the other thing is, Linkman's already ahead of it, that's just like, don't go to the hospital, because he knows what's going to happen if he goes to the hospital. So he's already ahead of the game. Um, uh, and then Dennis is like, don't go to the hospital. You're a jerk.

Sean: 1:10:21

You're a jerk. Yeah. Um, and I also have to point out that this is where we see, Uh, Gil Bellows again saying that he hire Japanese girls to accompany him to dinner or maybe to whip the back of his legs with with Twizzlers.

Alison: 1:10:38

And that'll come back later.

Sean: 1:10:40

Yeah, it's just so funny that such a specific um.

Alison: 1:10:45

it's very much in the background, like that is almost lost.

Sean: 1:10:49

right, right.

Alison: 1:10:50

Yeah, it's just color. but then you, but then

Andy: 1:10:53

it's not color. It like plays in heavily as does everything,

Sean: 1:10:57

Um,

Andy: 1:10:57

will say. Uh, Conrad also says, which is, I have, I have a way that I think about, uh, particularly television series, although comply to movies to of that. Some people have a creative morality and some people don't, uh, which I sort of see is like. It's like you're making this pact with the audience, particularly if it's structured in kind of a suspense filled, mysterious way, that you're really going to pay things off, but you're not going to pay things off. Conrad says they don't move forward until they know where they are going and where this, all these arcs are going to end, which to me is so unusual and wonderful.

Alison: 1:11:36

Yeah. that, that, is so this series was written, that he had written the whole series the pilot Because there's things that are set are, this can't, this can't unfold like a normal television show where the story continues and the story continues, like every little thing is being set up so early on in such an amazing way.

Sean: 1:12:00

I hate to say this, but it's sort of like of like a good Herald. Uh, alright, so the next thing we see is is

Andy: 1:12:10

where's the eject button? I can't find the eject button.

Sean: 1:12:13

The next thing we see is the Brazilian guy's apartment, which again, is shot in such a cool way outside. And then the camera just stays there as he clearly goes around the building and breaks in, and we're just watching this guy watch TV, And then all of a sudden, comes in and tells him in very halting, tone, Portuguese, bag belongs to me. I'm I'm taking it. Don't move. then there's that great moment. I mean, your point before Alison about how it's a

Alison: 1:12:46

I think he's speaking French. I just wanted to say that.

Sean: 1:12:48

Oh, okay. Uh, It's a little, it's a little, I don't speak anything. So Um, But the uh, but the brothers all coming out of the room, all wearing the exact same underwear, of them with anything else all of them giant and looking like they know their way around an octagon, it's, it's both like a little surreal, but also just so know

Alison: 1:13:18

another absurdist thing. I think it's just these guys just that you don't know any of them are there, and then like five doors

Sean: 1:13:24

the music too, makes the whole whole scene, you

Alison: 1:13:27

Yeah.

Andy: 1:13:29

Funny, but it also has been set up like it's

Alison: 1:13:32

Yeah. Agreed.

Andy: 1:13:35

we saw it coming and the other thing that adds to the, the ominousness of it, even though it's like hilarious, is they're all slowly descending on

Alison: 1:13:44

Yep. Confident, confidence.

Andy: 1:13:47

They're going to beat him.

Sean: 1:13:50

And they start doing all kinds of, uh, arm locks and yeah. Yeah. and he's clearly struggling. Yeah.

Andy: 1:13:59

And it's kind of like, how's he going to get out of this, which is again, great writing. If you can paint your character into a um, and they set up the knife and he stabs just the right, you know, person at the right moment them. So that's like, that's another thing that's just like one more, one more, tally on, on John's, uh, on John's record, uh, emotional record. he escapes.

Alison: 1:14:24

And what we don't know yet, but we learn very soon, is that there are to no crime. There's next to no crime in Luxembourg.

Andy: 1:14:35

wonder, is that

Alison: 1:14:35

And certainly not any. And certainly not any murders.

Sean: 1:14:39

Yeah, they, they do list it on screen at 2011, zero murders, 2012, zero murders, 2013, three murders. So he's really having an effect on

Alison: 1:14:52

He really,

Sean: 1:14:52

he's there. yeah,

Alison: 1:14:54

some, shone some spotlights on himself.

Sean: 1:14:56

Right. Uh, so then we go back. We're at dinner where John is supposed to be. Leslie is furious that John's not there, Doesn't know where he is. Um, John is hiding in an alley somewhere and calls, I guess, first calls his contacts at the CIA. who sends somebody to help him and then then calls his wife, as you said, to see if she has setting the alarm. And it's just a very sweet moment. between them. After he has murdered by the police driving by, Edward shows up uses, uses his attaché badge to get the police to to do what he wants them to

Alison: 1:15:39

Ah, go fuck him up.

Andy: 1:15:40

Even in that scene. Go fuck him up. Even in that scene. clearly doesn't need to. They don't like his story. They're like, okay, great. And then he's like, here's my badge. It's like, it's just

Sean: 1:15:52

Yes.

Andy: 1:15:53

in because he wants to use the badge.

Sean: 1:15:56

Uh, just a very, very funny character. then, and then John up at dinner and Dennis is at a different table and and make sure John knows that he because Edward says there's a clean shirt in the, in the, bag that he can change dinner, but then he still has his neck murdered someone moments ago. And Dennis helps him realize that not get caught caught by Leslie.

Andy: 1:16:24

Yeah, sort of showing that Dennis is

Sean: 1:16:27

semi on He's on Yeah, even though he got stabbed in the thigh. He still wants to Be cool with this Then he's at, he's at I guess Well, he says, I don't know if this is an open mic. I don't know what the sign said but he's performing another song again, just spilling his guts about what just just happened to And, and Edward, uh, comes up and says, we we, we got to get And my favorite thing about that sequence an extra sitting in the front of the entire thing while he's playing a song. And when he goes, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm taking off or whatever. gives this huge, like. like, very,

Alison: 1:17:09

She's like, I was enjoying this

Sean: 1:17:11

Yes. It was so good.

Andy: 1:17:13

good. Do

Sean: 1:17:14

you think that was planned or do you think the extra just went It just seemed so over the top. It seemed like one of those things where maybe nobody realized until later that that was the best take they had and she was incredibly distracting, but they had to use it, you know. You know?

Alison: 1:17:30

also such comedy in that scene where John's singing the song, clearly giving away like, very top secret details about this mission, and his brother jumps up can't get to the like a waiter, then there's another table here, and he just takes him forever to get to the stage.

Sean: 1:17:49

getting cut

Alison: 1:17:50

funny. Yeah, it's like, oh, sorry, okay, you just go by with that. But he doesn't want to cause too much he is is causing a scene, it's great.

Sean: 1:17:57

Um, this is also another moment where. Edward, you know, and John, there's this crazy shit going on and Edward takes a moment to say, I'm always going to be there there for you. You know, there's like this very sweet thing to their that that even when murder somebody and I will you get out get out of that and then we meet, Agatha. the detective

Alison: 1:18:31

Oui, I get.

Sean: 1:18:32

a I got, yeah. Uh, she's speaking French, Um, who knows?

Alison: 1:18:41

Who, and, and this opens up a whole other thing that we'll learn more about later, but the fact that we'll, again, I don't want to spoil it, but we learned that the women detectives in of homicides because there are never any homicides.

Sean: 1:18:58

Yeah.

Andy: 1:18:59

I was shocked that this was established this early. I had no memory that it was in the pilot.

Alison: 1:19:05

I forgot too. I was like, wow, they really go through everything.

Andy: 1:19:09

Which really just shows the level of forethought that this whole series had. and

Sean: 1:19:15

So shh.

Andy: 1:19:16

of the actors, uh, I don't know, maybe Allison could do better with this name.

Alison: 1:19:22

Yeah, that was wrong. I don't know how you say it, but I know that was wrong.

Andy: 1:19:26

I'm friends with her. on a Harold team with me. Um, I, she, uh, she's so again, perfect casting. Uh, just because. immediately holds your attention and holds a certain authority, so little to do in this show. They show her with her daughter, like they established so much in this one hour of television.

Sean: 1:19:51

She's very, she's obviously, she's very beautiful, but she also just has a gravity Oh yeah, this this is a detective who's going to be a problem. know?

Andy: 1:20:00

Right.

Sean: 1:20:00

then we see her at the the crime scene and she says, make a note of anybody subscribes to tonight.

Alison: 1:20:10

good at her job.

Andy: 1:20:11

job. So good at her job. And that's exactly the mistake that Dennis makes in the next scene, as well as going to the hospital. So there, so it all leads back to them. They're already asking him

Sean: 1:20:21

But also that John knows that was a huge mistake for Dennis to subscribe Like John immediately goes. You know, he

Andy: 1:20:29

knows too.

Sean: 1:20:30

that somebody is going to after him. Yeah. don't

Andy: 1:20:33

know. It's like, is John just going to kill him? Is that just what's going to happen? Like, that is a possibility with this character, even after the time we've taken to make Dennis sort of sympathetic and funny,

Alison: 1:20:46

Mm hmm.

Kevin: 1:20:46

right?

Andy: 1:20:47

and this is when everything starts collapsing on itself. And, you know, he gets the threatening note from the Barrows brothers. Which to me, I did not notice it the first time around. It's a threat from the Barrows brothers that give us the bag back, or we're going to kill you. And it has a sketch on it

Sean: 1:21:06

Yeah.

Andy: 1:21:06

did it

Alison: 1:21:07

It's

Andy: 1:21:09

either for fun or for like, Oh, maybe you won't know who we are. Right. You did do a little sketch.

Sean: 1:21:16

Yeah. It's pretty great. Uh, well, and then at this point is where he gives the money he's supposed to be delivering. He, the guy, you know, he talks to the guy on the phone, The guy tells him where to meet him. He gives them the money. And then of course he finds out he gave the money to the wrong guy. So this is now gone completely sideways all fucked up.

Andy: 1:21:38

Um, and this kind of builds to this one shot when they go back. To, uh, when, when, and Kurtwood Smith is already irritated with it because he was late for the important meeting. Again, a scene with Kurtwood Smith to me is giving him too much slack, but I kind of feel as you get to know that character more and more and know what he's been through and stuff like that. It just sort of makes sense. uh, and he still maintains that Kurtwood Smith intimidation. But, uh, it builds to the scene when they're sort of back home, and it's this long shot that's this one shot where all of the threads in a single one shot are sort of tied together and heightened for series.

Alison: 1:22:20

Yeah.

Andy: 1:22:20

And it's like, In that way, this is like, it's, this show is so artistic and it does so many things to break the form. But one of the things they always ask an audience that they're testing a show with at the end is like, well, where do you think it's going to go? Or whatever, just kind of see that you're invested. Yeah. Everything leads to another problem. Like Birdbath leaves him a threatening note in the one shot. Um, Kirtwood Smith is saying you may not be going on any other trips because you screwed up on this one, which will of course undermine the whole purpose of him being there. Uh, Stephen Tichou shows up again, has a job there to cover for his mistakes and in kind of a heartbreaking performance Because now he's like, injured his brain and can't even speak right, uh, but may remember everything in the future. So that's another thing that's hanging. Um, and Dennis says that he went to the hospital and now the police are talking to him. That's all in one shot. And then it lands on Kirtwood Smith saying, also you keep parking in my fucking parking spot.

Alison: 1:23:24

Which again, he has to hold as important as the nuclear threat. Because if he drops either ball, the whole mission is fucked.

Sean: 1:23:34

incredible.

Andy: 1:23:35

wonderful.

Sean: 1:23:37

I also just want to mention a scene that we kind of kind of skipped over because it's such a great scene, even though it doesn't have anything to do with, it's very important going forward, but for now it's, it's, not that important. But it's, it's, um, Edward relationship with his son about how he loved, there was a congressman who loved to dance and let's call him cool Rick.

Alison: 1:24:02

Cool Rick is such a great name.

Sean: 1:24:04

Yeah. And, and, you know, and his, Important going forward. Uh, but, uh, yeah. So he explains that he got into, to a

Andy: 1:24:12

certain degree buys back. We were already like, all right, fuck this character. And the rest of the time he's obsessed with the badge. He just seems like a total. And in this moment, not that it buys back his screw up with the kid fully with the audience, but at least we're like, In his own dumb, completely shut off way,

Alison: 1:24:31

he's

Andy: 1:24:31

crying and cares about this kid and cares about his mother.

Sean: 1:24:34

Right, and whatever happened, he finally, for the first time, is telling this kid that he's his father and that and that he loves him.

Alison: 1:24:42

Yeah, and Cool Rick loves you so much!

Sean: 1:24:45

Yes! So that's it. then we're then we're hooked for episode two. two. right,

Alison: 1:24:52

I hope this gets at least just one other person to watch this show. It's such a good show.

Andy: 1:24:59

I hope so too. it's really just such a feat of television and it's, it does make it even more perfect that it's just like. quiet, undiscovered thing, other than by cult, you know, people who are looking for a cult favorite, it's just, it was so satisfying. So thank you, Allison.

Alison: 1:25:18

Thanks having me.

Andy: 1:25:19

You're my, you're my number one recommender now.

Alison: 1:25:23

I don't want, I don't want that

Andy: 1:25:25

Well, that's too bad. That's

Alison: 1:25:26

where Have you heard about Love is Blind?

Sean: 1:25:30

You're

Andy: 1:25:31

so Allison, uh, you've had such a, a,

Sean: 1:25:35

far reaching career.

Alison: 1:25:38

You're old?

Andy: 1:25:40

both as an actor and a writer. Uh, do you have any, uh, experiences on pilots that you would like to

Alison: 1:25:47

Oh, that's an interesting question because I think I'm in a very, uh, lucky and unlucky position think I am one of, if not, I, I'm either one of the highest, if not the highest of have network pilots that I have tested for and not never booked one.

Kevin: 1:26:08

Yeah.

Alison: 1:26:09

mean, I, I'm guessing that at least two or three dozen I've tested for a network testing means it's between you and like two people, you know, you're, you're really at the end there and you sign the contract and do, you. do your performance in front of the execs. And I just could test and test and test. And I never booked a network pilot. and it was devastating. Every time it happens, is devastating because you, you sign this contract that's basically like your life will change. If you get this job, you sign the paper and then to have your final audition, and then, and I was so lucky that I got where I got to test but to test. so many times And never even get one was me, which is kind of why I stopped acting so much.

Sean: 1:26:56

It's a hard business. Yeah.

Andy: 1:26:59

see them, they show you the money you're going to make. So it's just like, Oh man, so

Alison: 1:27:05

Yeah.

Andy: 1:27:05

show that to you. They

Alison: 1:27:07

it's just The amount of nerves and like, you can't do anything else that day. You have to do your hair and run your lines. don't pay you for that day and you can't do anything else or make any other money. but you, it is just hardest thing in the world. And often you're going against your friends too, just to add more, trauma into it.

Sean: 1:27:27

You and I you and I tested, you and I tested for the same part part at

Alison: 1:27:30

And you always got it.

Sean: 1:27:32

Yeah, yeah.

Alison: 1:27:33

Fuck you.

Sean: 1:27:35

I ruined, your, I ruined your career.

Alison: 1:27:37

you. did, you did, many times.

Andy: 1:27:39

You're going against your friends, you're going against Sort of different variations of you that offers like something slightly different. Yep. Um, and it's several different levels of, of it can be sort of, you know, production company, studio, network, several times at network, different pairs, pairings to see chemistry.

Kevin: 1:27:59

Um,

Andy: 1:27:59

and it's, it's every one of them. And I've been, I've only done it a couple of times as an actor and mostly as, uh, you know, on the other side. Okay. And I always, my heart goes out to everyone going through that process. and I, I remember Jon Hamm talking about this, Um.

Sean: 1:28:20

Andy,

Andy: 1:28:20

here's

Sean: 1:28:20

what I think about testing for pilots. But

Andy: 1:28:23

just being in the same.

Alison: 1:28:25

Pass me another glass of wine, Andy. And I'll tell you what I think about pilots. got it,

Andy: 1:28:29

Johnny. That he, uh, that he would do the same thing you're, you're saying and that prior to Mad Men it would just be like every year just like test, test, test, not, not getting the part. Test, test, test, not getting the

Alison: 1:28:42

And that's Jon

Andy: 1:28:43

Hamm! And that's Jon Hamm! Uh, he's much more handsome than you

Alison: 1:28:47

Yeah!

Andy: 1:28:49

He, uh, and then with, uh, with, uh, Mad Men, it was the same thing. It was like an endless series of testing. And then he got to the last level and it changed his career, but it's like, just as easily could not. It's. so difficult, but luckily and how do

Sean: 1:29:05

you not go into that process once you've done it a bunch of times you know, john ham is auditioning for mad men and he's tested for so many things and not gotten them How do, you go into the process and I know you you have to but how do you not go into the process going like? Well, this isn't gonna happen. What is the point of You know,

Alison: 1:29:23

you do, but then you're also, when you sign that contract, you're like, Oh, this is, there's a chance. Also, because I had done it so many times, everyone from like industry people family to friends, everyone was like, I don't, I've never seen someone test this many times and not get one. Like you're definitely going to get one at some point. It would be, it would be like statistically you not to get one. And I just couldn't get kept testing.

Andy: 1:29:48

The most upsetting, well I don't know if it's the most upsetting or it's the, it's the nice takeaway, is if you get to that level and you're testing that much, that means you're great. That means you do have a look that kinda they want. It's like,

Alison: 1:30:01

You're, you have all, they're like, you could get it. Yeah, you could get it, but it's just like, and again, just to be it's like, what

Andy: 1:30:08

the

Alison: 1:30:09

Yeah, and don't get the money, don't get the experience. It was just, yeah. Thanks for reminding me of of that, guys.

Andy: 1:30:15

Anyway, uh, if you wanna see her tests, Allison has a YouTube channel where she puts all of her tests up.

Alison: 1:30:22

It's just me crying. It's called

Sean: 1:30:24

career trauma.

Alison: 1:30:27

Jot net.

Andy: 1:30:28

Well, luckily for you, Alison, you're multi talented and now you're killing it as a writer.

Alison: 1:30:33

thanks Andy. I'm trying.

Andy: 1:30:35

Um, and you are still out there as an actor.

Alison: 1:30:38

Yeah. I still do acts. Listen, if someone wants to put me in a pilot, I won't say no.

Andy: 1:30:41

And you make your money as a, as a commercial actor.

Alison: 1:30:44

yeah. Yeah. I'll Also do that.

Andy: 1:30:46

So this was really more of a like, just a thorough love fest than any episode thus far

Alison: 1:30:52

really

Andy: 1:30:53

the product. Just because it's like, well, we've had a,

Sean: 1:30:55

we've had a couple like that, but this one might have been the most over the top of how much we, we loved this, you know,

Andy: 1:31:00

just three people that couldn't say enough, uh, wonderful things about the show and I, they all deserved. Yes.

Sean: 1:31:06

And I agree with Allison. If we could just get one person to watch the show, I will feel like mission accomplished. Same. Yeah.

Alison: 1:31:14

Yeah.

Andy: 1:31:15

Uh, thank you so much, Allison Becker, for joining us. Thank you, friends. Um, good, good friend, talented actor, talented writer. Uh, Queen of, uh, Los Angeles.

Alison: 1:31:29

Wow! Thanks! I'll take it! Can't book a pilot.

Andy: 1:31:34

uh, alright. ladies and gentlemen, if you would like to check us out, We are copilots tv.com. All of our information is there. Um, is it.com?I don't even

Sean: 1:31:48

It's dot com. Yes. We tried to get TV and.net and and dot we couldn't get any of those, so we ended up with.com.

Andy: 1:31:56

if you want to hear more, please, check out our Patreon. patreon. com forward slash copilots TV. all of our other information is there too. Please send us, you know, emails, comments, give us five stars and you will get your pilots wings.

Sean: 1:32:12

My wings have still not come. I gave us five

Andy: 1:32:15

No, yeah, I told you Sean, they're not, it's a fake thing. You just get imaginary pilot's wings.