CoPilots - TV Writers Talk TV Pilots | Comedians, Actors, and Writers Reviewing TV Episodes

8 - SEVERANCE and the Mystery of the Mystery Boxes

• Kevin McNulty • Episode 8

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Sean and Andy discuss the pilot Severance. The 2022 show is available to watch on Apple TV (LINK).  Check out our Patreon for coverage of the second episode!

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Sean Conroy (IG, Twitter, TikTok)
Andy Secunda (IG, Twitter)

Produced by Agustin Islas

Comedy Writers, TV Review, Funny Reviews, Entertainment, UCB Improv, Fun Reviews, Pilot Writing, Pilot Episode, First Episode, TV Writing, Comedian Reviews

Sean:

Andy, before we get into it, I just wanted to mention that I got a text yesterday from my mother Yeah. Who was very excited because she was getting her nails done. She was in the nail salon. That was, well, I'm sure that was exciting to her. But the main reason she texted me that she was excited was because she saw your name on the TV screen across the salon.

Andy:

First of all, Great eyesight, great powers of observation.

Sean:

she's, she's doing great. She's really doing great.

Andy:

Yeah. And, uh, we have many friends in business. I don't know that I would go Oh, so yeah,

Sean:

you know, she knows, she knows who matters

Andy:

Right.

Sean:

And uh,

Andy:

it must have been

Sean:

Yeah, I would assume so as

Andy:

unless she was watching an Argentinian channel that was playing Love

Sean:

Incorporated. Right. but she was, and then she's, she got very confused cuz she was like, but it said he was some kind of producer or something. And so I had to whole go through a whole explanation of WGA credits and Sure. How that matters to how much money you make. And she's like, how much money are you making? And I was like, can we not get into that right now? Sure, sure. It was a whole, it was a whole thing. Hey everybody, welcome to CoPilots. I am Sean Conroy and I'm Andy Secunda. On this podcast, we talk about TV pilots, the first episodes of television shows. Sometimes pilots become long running series. Others don't make it past that first episode.

Andy:

We're going to talk about all of them. The great pilots, the bad pilots, weird pilots, the forgotten pilots. We are TV writers, but it should be noted that we are the dumbest TV writers, you know, so all of these are just our dumb opinions.

Sean:

So dumb. so this week we watched Severance.

Andy:

Yes. And I suggested this, uh, I think probably more often cuz Sean is someone who devours television more than I do and he has just sparkling recommendations from

Sean:

I like how you bring that up every week. Like, I, I really enjoy that. I

Andy:

don't know, you gave me

Sean:

the

Andy:

wire. Yeah. Yeah. I will never, you know, stop being grateful for that. Um,

Sean:

thing we should do is have like, me give a recommendation at the end of every show, but do it in a way where I'm actually recommending something that's not good just to defeat your, your,

Andy:

don't wanna be put in a box of having good taste.

Sean:

Look, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.

Andy:

but, uh, yeah. mostly, I wanted your Sean's take on this and see, see how he reacted to it, uh, on severance. Cause I'd seen the whole, first season and, uh, he's, he had not seen any of it. So sometimes it'll be one of us. Sometimes it'll be the other. and sometimes, we'll, both or neither have seen the, the, uh, the series. Just the pilot.

Sean:

We, that's what they call four quadrants. We're hitting,

Andy:

Yes. That way we're covering all levels of people who are equally disinterested in this show, this podcast. so yeah, I mean, we're operating blind. We haven't really even talked before we started recording. And as, as is the real, inception point for this show. That was the reason we, we kind of thought, oh, this is, maybe we should do this as a podcast, is that I am always eager to discuss it with Sean, whatever it is we're watching together.

Sean:

just a couple things before we start talking about the actual show. I know you have some information you wanted to share

Andy:

Very little.

Sean:

I will say that it debuted on February 18th, 2022. And that was a big day because of course that was the day that season five of Stranger Things was announced. Everybody was very excited about that.

Andy:

The town was a titter.

Sean:

Yes. And also, uh, that was Dr. Dre's, uh, birthday was February

Andy:

is two things. How are you celebrating Sean?

Sean:

His birthday? Yeah. Uh, this year I'm going to do something with ivory. you know, it's the ivory birthday, so this is a, this is an interesting story. Well, we don't really have a lot of details, but that this started as a screenplay and then. Became,

Andy:

Yeah, Dan Erickson had had, uh, no time in a writing room, uh, and had written, uh, this script, uh, and it seems as a screenplay and had gotten on the blood list in, uh, 2016,

Sean:

which is,

Andy:

sort of a thriller horror version of, of the Blacklist, which is, You, you can explain

Sean:

I don't, I don't know what

Andy:

me eager to. All right. Well, it's a, it's a sort of a mostly, um, entertainment industry driven list of the best screenplays. my understanding is it's mostly like, you know, sort of insiders assistance, people who are the, you know, the people who are most read the scripts, all sort of voting and the scripts that get on there get instantly a lot of attention.

Sean:

so it's like stuff that hasn't been produced basically. Exactly, yeah. So people read a lot of stuff and pass it up the chain, and then there's stuff that doesn't get passed up that they go, this is actually really good. Somebody about it.

Andy:

I would actually love to know more about the process. Once again, call the tip line.

Sean:

That's one 800. Sean and Andy. or was it Andy and Sean? I think we have two

Andy:

tip lines. We have two tip lines, so you can call either one. and, uh, somehow it, I guess through that process, it, it, it wove, it weaved, it's, it ended up at, at

Sean:

when did it, when did its way

Andy:

Red Hour Entertainment

Sean:

winded.

Andy:

and, uh, Ben Stiller got involved and, you know, if you got a heavy hitter like that involved, you're sort of halfway there. Although my understanding, you know, this is more you know, people who are distantly, know the players involved. And I think it's also public knowledge on, on Dan Erickson's. You know, a description of Ben Stiller, which is generally, you know, a po not generally, he was universally positive as, as well as should be. He created his career, um, is just that he's very meticulous, Ben Stiller is, and, you know, would go over it line by line and, you know, question, uh, all the, all the angles on it and like, really. I mean, that's why I think it's, it's, to a certain degree, it's, you know, people are astonished. This uh, Dan Erickson's first script, and I would love to to get ahold of that original script and compare, because it seems so incredibly, you know, adept and well structured. Now,

Sean:

maybe stellar could have been a little more particular with the Secret life of Walter Mitty.

Andy:

Well, I mean, uh, that was also Dan Erickson's script, and I think that was why he was so hard on him.

Sean:

He did the rewrite of the, uh, of the Danny Kay original

Andy:

that was on the chuckle Yes. Which is a, which is a thing that the bunch of clowns vote on. And in the industry

Sean:

clowns. Not clown, not circus

Andy:

Around Hollywood. Yeah. And, uh,

Sean:

so Erickson gets this career out of Ben Stiller. Yes. Has this show we all go, wow. This is amazingly accomplished for somebody who's doing this for the first time. Right.

Andy:

We not including Sean, who has just watched it recently.

Sean:

Right. I didn't think anything until this week. And that's not what I didn't think about that,

Andy:

No, you were thinking about yourself

Sean:

I was, I was not paying attention to the show. Yeah. Uh, anything else before we get started?

Andy:

Nothing that's, I know. Okay. As a dumb person.

Sean:

Uh, okay. So let's talk through the pilot and figure out what goes on. So we start in a conference room, sort of a nondescript, uh, conference room where a woman is passed out on the table and there's a voice, on a speaker waking her up. And it's very disconcerting and strange. Mm-hmm. And we don't understand exactly what's going on, nor does she, we as the viewer are sort of in the same state that she is trying to figure out what's happening. she can't get out of the room. She's trying to get out of the room. The voice on the speaker says, I just want you to take five questions. This survey. She doesn't want to do that. She's resistant. She doesn't know where she is. She's a little bit, uh, panicked maybe I would say, Right. Um, and she finally realizes she has no choice but to answer these que or no, I guess she doesn't realize she has no choice. He asks the first question and she realizes she doesn't know the answer. And how bizarre that is.

Andy:

Right. The first question being who, who are you? Yeah. What's or is what's your

Sean:

name? What's your name? Whatever

Andy:

So she says who the first line of the show is. Who are you? Uh, which is, I don't know when to get into this. Becau to me, I, watching the show originally, I love dystopian stuff. uh, I'm a long-standing fan of Ben Stiller. Uh, had a few, uh,

Sean:

was like a Venn diagram of some of your favorite things.

Andy:

E Exactly. Um, and you know, just from way back, you know, Ben Stiller's show, uh, maybe even, uh, before some of his shorts that he did, uh, like the Hustler Money we parody of, you know, is his classic Tom Cruise, but he d he does a, uh, there there's a level of parody that he did of, genre stuff and of, you know, mainstream media that I think to a certain degree has been unparalleled in terms of just, you know, it was, it was obviously very silly as appropriate to the time, but just a level of detail that, uh, that very few people have kind of matched over time. And as he's gone through his career, you know, some things that's obviously all over the place, but he's recently gone into drama and sort of that same meticulousness has been applied to drama and I kind of feel like this is. Interestingly, kind of almost a mixture of this like heavy, heavily satirical eye and this now this dramatic kind of weight being combined. And what's amazing to me is right in from the beginning, like literally first line, it's, it states the theme. Who are you first minute, the visuals, the, the, the, the aesthetic especially, uh, just immediately. Draws you in with the mystery and the tone. Um, and it's the thing that, you know, all screenwriters and and directors, uh, are always try, you know, they're always trying to, you know, hook you in the first moment of a pilot, which is why they usually lean on indirections of like, well, let's everyone explain who they are immediately, or sex or whatever it is. And this is just, you know, well, what's,

Sean:

I always try to explain who I am during sex, which might

Andy:

be, well, I mean, that probably makes, you know, that makes'em ask less questions. Let

Sean:

me tell you about where I was born and the things I've done since then.

Andy:

I mean, many people would, you know, in these industry would say, well, then your sex is gonna test better with audiences.

Sean:

Right. The dial goes up. Right?

Andy:

Yeah. Um, so I don't know at what point to ask you this, Sean. Mm-hmm. Should I ask an overview? Because I don't know what, like, did you enjoy this pilot? What was

Sean:

Yeah, that's a good question. Yes. And I think this is the appropriate time to ask that because, uh, it is inter, it's like an interesting show in that way where you do kind of come away with an overall idea versus maybe the moments to moments of the show being, because I felt like it was interesting and I would like to watch more of the show. Mm-hmm. I don't know that. It's a show that I would walk away from going, that was amazing. I loved it. You know? Yeah. Um, it was compelling. It was, it was fascinating. It's interesting you say that about the satirical elements, because I wasn't thinking of it as satire, but I was more like, oh, it's one of these kind of things, you know?

Andy:

and when you say these kind of things, like liken it to something

Sean:

I couldn't even tell you. I couldn't even give you a good example.

Andy:

Well, let me throw out something to you and see if this does fit your thing, because this show from my, uh, from my perspective it's mystery box storytelling. Have we discussed this before? No. So mystery box, or have we That's for you to decide audience. it's a term that I believe originated with, uh, JJ Abrams. it's basically he described it as, because JJ Abrams sort of, you know, uh, being one of the, one of the main forces behind lost and many of his things sort of are built on this, which is, creating mysteries that are, that are to a large degree, the thing that propels the audience forward in terms of leaning forward to see what are the answers to these questions they're posing are going to be. And the reason it's called mystery Box Storytelling is because as a boy, he was into magic and there was one particular thing that was a box that would come, and he never opened the, uh, mystery. Box. Um,

Sean:

the way you just described that feels, I didn't follow it, but it feels like a perfect example of what you're talking about because I'm like, I want to figure out what that story was about the mystery box

Andy:

story. I mean, I am sort of a natural mystery box, but usually that's by communicating in an incoherent way. So it's, so it accomplishes the same purpose. Right. So anyway, that is what, I don't know if, is that what you mean by it's

Sean:

I guess it is. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking

Andy:

in the thing

Sean:

was thinking more amnesia kind of things. Like, okay, oh, this is exactly like overboard with Goldie Hawn or, or

Andy:

Classic. Classic Amnesia.

Sean:

This is sliding doors with Gwyneth Paltro. No, no, no. I don't mean

Andy:

I don't think she has, uh, amne Does she have amnesia

Sean:

then? The guy has amnesia, I

Andy:

okay. It's been a while since I've seen, I thought she has just two

Sean:

two different, I don't understand how films work.

Andy:

Uh, I would say Memento is more of the Well is even that. Yeah. I guess that's kind of amnesia, But you're

Sean:

right, it

Andy:

amnesia. It's, it's constant amnesia. That's what that whole thing is.

Sean:

never saw it or did I?

Andy:

you have. Well see. All right. Now I feel like we should just take a break from our pilots and we should go watch that anyway.

Sean:

Uh, but it is, it's like Yes, that's exactly right is I was like, oh, this is a thing where I'm supposed to be three steps behind the entire way until they decide to show me their hand.

Andy:

Right. And as we'll get to lost because I have a, a bit of a, a love hate relationship with Lost.

Sean:

have a hate

Andy:

I thought you didn't get that far into lost. Oh, okay. Well, there you go. All right. Well,

Sean:

but not for any artistic reasons. Just because, well, we'll, we'll talk about

Andy:

time. Um, yeah, I look forward to that because it's like, lost is the, the, the quintessential mystery box show in that every episode would end with the little mystery boxes, or frankly, every act would, they would try to end with mystery boxes and. Most of the time to my thinking, you didn't answer. And the people who love the show would argue that they do answer. And I think what they do is it's a little bit of bait and switch. They answer early on, and then they cease to answer less and less as as time goes on. Um, which, you know, could be up for debate, but it is what, to me it was effective because it really, they were really good at the mysteries. And I have a perspective overall, that I get frustrated. But just like there's a, there's an aspect that bothers me if, if you lack a creative morality, and by that I mean you have a responsibility to your audience of you are hooking them with something.

Sean:

There has to be a payoff of some

Andy:

sort in some way. Yeah. And this show is interesting. I don't, here's another sort of thing about this, this what I, how I would like to structure this podcast is trying really as hard as we can to avoid spoilers. Um, which sometimes is gonna be difficult to describe, but I, I don't know how I feel in terms of where they land on, paying stuff off or not paying stuff off. Um, at some point, maybe, we'll, we'll delve further into the, into the show, but, uh, I do feel like, the tone is so successful that I found myself not being as infuriated as many other shows that I watch where right off the bat it's clearly like this is gonna be a mystery box show and it's like I either don't care or like the question I always ask about a mystery box show is like in lost. They would end. Scenes or sequences where, you know, so you follow someone walking, you know, obviously towards the other person. And then at the end, uh, you know, and they seem like they're really thinking and they're like, what are you thinking? Just like I'm thinking I'm gonna start a war boom. And then it was like, if someone came and that moment and sort of leaned into the screen and went, by the way, there's no war, no war is ever gonna happen. That's just a thing that he's saying at the end of this episode. Would you still be in, you're interested if he says, I'm gonna start a war? If he said, that's never gonna be paid off in any way, would you still be interested? Well, that's my feeling. and I think with this show on a lot of it, I would be like if they, you know, if there are questions posed and they said, if we don't get to that, or we don't get to that for a long time, or you're gonna be, uh, not interested in this show. And my feeling for this season at least, is yes. So,

Sean:

so you're, I don't, I'm not, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but basically you just said no. Uh, but it's,

Andy:

well, if you're restating my words, then I don't think you're

Sean:

mouth. No, I feel like

Andy:

you're stealing them. If anything, you're stealing them for my

Sean:

I invented the word laughter. Um, I feel like, Maybe what you're saying, I don't know this, but maybe what you're saying is like, the style of it was almost enough for you and the substance wasn't as important.

Andy:

Well, I guess this is where we get into a, uh, you know, at what point are the aesthetic decisions that you're making and, and that the, the actors are and the, the visuals are delivering the music and the texture of the whole thing. At what point is that tied so directly to the show thematically and in terms of the subtextual drive of the show that it's not. Style over substance. That the style is the substance. Yeah. In a positive way, not in a negative way. And that is how I feel about this show. And I would say going further, even more so watching it again now, having seen the whole season, and by that I don't even again necessarily mean, oh, because, eh, this and then this, I may mean that, or I may not

Sean:

So the doctor is the janitor son, right? Yeah.

Andy:

No. Well now you've hit a spoiler on this. So anyway, I I

Sean:

you get to the season finale, you won't be surprised.

Andy:

I feel like I interrupted your flow to go on my mystery

Sean:

That's okay. Because I do think that's, that is exactly what I was thinking without knowing. That was what I was thinking was like, because I didn't have the term mystery box. Although now that you say that, I, I, I have it in my head. I've heard it before.

Andy:

Amnesia is another subgenre

Sean:

have a tattoo, a larger one. I have a tattoo on my arm that says mystery box. So maybe that's why that's there is to remind me that it's a, anyway,

Andy:

me, Sean, you're memento. knows?

Sean:

I've never seen it. uh, so they start, so, so they, so she's taking the survey and just to follow up on your point, she doesn't remember her name. She doesn't know where she's from. And then the next question is, can you name any state or territory in the United States? And she can't. And then she goes Delaware. And I think that to me is an example of like, I hope that somewhere down the line we understand why she said Delaware, but if we don't, it doesn't really matter. You know? Right. It's like there, it feels like they're setting something up. Right. Because it's like, wait, why did she say Delaware? But then if I don't hear about that later on, I won't be like, but I saw her say Delaware at the beginning. Right. And they live in New Jersey. You know what I mean? Right. Like, it was just interesting in and of itself. Even if it never makes

Andy:

sense, Well, you know, what's, there'll be another example of that that I guess I'll, I'll get to like later on where it's sort of like, there was a couple of things watching it again, now having seen the first season where I was like, oh, they

Sean:

set that up earlier or

Andy:

whatever. No, the reverse. I was like, oh, that, that's not something that came back. Right. and then it's like, does that stand on its own? And I can, uh, I don't know if you want me to jump ahead too. The example of that

Sean:

We're not following this

Andy:

not. Sean has his, his ex all broken down Go ahead. the moment when, uh, Tremmel Tillman, who's amazing in this, who plays Mr. Milick, um, he comments, you know, it'd be nice if you, uh, if, if you said to her, you know, that you like her, her office, her office, uh, Patricia Arquettes office, and then she's immediately like, Ugh, it's horrid. And at, at first when he says that in the thing, I was like, oh, I don't remember that. Spoiler. I don't remember that coming back. and, but I,

Sean:

that a, is that a spoiler though? That's like a non-polar.

Andy:

there's a lot of debates

Sean:

Don't give away the stuff that doesn't happen.

Andy:

I always try and err on the side of, not saying anything in any direction. Because I feel like a lot of people, just to give you my overview on spoilers, most people think they know what a spoiler is. No, no. I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying at the end, you're gonna feel so sad. I'm like, well, you're not telling me any information, but you're bracing me for a certain state of mind that now I'm not gonna feel because I'm gonna have, you know, I'm not along on that emotional journey now, whatever.

Sean:

going, oh, Danny said I'm gonna feel sad and I'm eating popcorn. How can I feel sad?

Andy:

Oh, Danny, spoiler. He's the worst. I should have known by his last name. Um, anyway, uh, in that, in that moment, I was like, oh, I don't know if that, Specifically comes back and it does feel like it's like, oh, is that of import? Um, however, the next moment when she says it was horrid, uh, milick makes a face that's kinda like wind. No, I feel like you made a face. Like, ugh. And I was like, oh, I am reading into that. Did Milick set up her new office or was he somehow responsible for like, oh, we can, we can put her here, and is that what's going on? Or is it just like, I was trying to make her happy, it didn't, it didn't work. or is it just an indication of control, of trying to make, but I really looks unhappy. Like, but I, but I, at first I was like, I was an indication of trying to control Adam Scott's, mood somehow. Who

Sean:

was that the only take they could use? And it was just happened to be while he

Andy:

like, oh, we're trapped with this.

Sean:

up with his girlfriend off set. And They, so he look at his facial expression, they're like, this is what we have. We have to use it. You know,

Andy:

See, I see Ben Stiller with his level of meticulousness probably would've cgd a new expression on there if that's how he felt. Anyway,

Sean:

so anyway, she can't get out of the room. Uh, she gets a perfect score. The door opens. and I guess Adam Scott then says something, says some line and Anyway, the, the point is, the end of the scene, we still don't know really what's going on. Yeah.

Andy:

I think he ends with It was you, it was a perfect

Sean:

Perfect score. Yeah. And, I was just like, okay, it's a, well I would've said it's a mystery box show, but I didn't know that at the time. I was just like, oh, it's one of these shows. Okay. And it was, it was interesting enough that I was okay with

Andy:

But you're not, is there a point when this show was like, you were like, okay, I'm on board with this journey?

Sean:

Well, here's the thing for me. Yeah. I am not a fan of puzzles. I don't l enjoy not knowing things. So when they start to explain things later on, yeah. I'm like, okay, thank you. That's what I wanted to know, you know? Um, but before

Andy:

it hence why you dislike

Sean:

no. That has, that's a personal

Andy:

a separate issue. Okay. Well, we'll get to

Sean:

to it. Uh, but, I found it compelling.

Andy:

and by I get to it, just to be clear, we mean within maybe a hundred episodes, at

Sean:

a hundred episodes, if not

Andy:

200.

Sean:

So put a pin in this. We'll be back. Um, but. Yeah. I was like, it's compelling, but I'm not, I'm not blown away. Cause I'm not like, oh, this is so cool. I have no idea what's going on. I love it. You know? Right. Um, because I'm not, I'm just not a huge fan of that kind of thing. Right.

Andy:

Uh, that's fair. and for you without that, with the questions unanswered, it did not have the effect on you that it had on me of the tone and the performances being interesting enough.

Sean:

Well, I mean, I, I, performances are different to me than, than a lot of other things. I was sitting there. Sort of going, okay, we get it. It's dystopian. There's nobody in the hallways. It's gigantic. It's, you know, I, I get it. It's 1984, it's whatever. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, and that's how I watch a lot of things is I just sit there and go, I get it. I get it.

Andy:

Yeah. He is, he's fighting the evil empire. He is gonna blow up the Deathstar. Oh no. Oh

Sean:

has a light saber. Of course he does.

Andy:

I realize I just spoiled Star Wars. That's the only spoiler I'm gonna do.

Sean:

Just look at the end of the second one. You're gonna be sad.

Andy:

No, Sean,

Sean:

not a spoiler. Um, So, so I, again, I, I, I was enjoying watching it, but I wasn't, it wasn't something where I was like, this is amazing. You know, which is obviously not every show, but what I'm aiming for when I'm watching a show, you know? Right. so anyway, cut to a guy in his car. Crying outside the building. And we see that it's the guy who was asking the questions in the beginning episode.

Andy:

Right. Mark asked, played by, I'm Scott.

Sean:

And then we have a long sequence where he, and this is what I'm talking about, where there, this is all tone, this is all style to me. Yeah. Of like walking into this giant building and walking up to the front desk and then an overhead shot of how vast the front hallway is, and walking through that and going through another hallway and empty offices and, and lots and lots of space in this giant place. And I think this is where he goes into the, locker room and switches the same things for the same things. Like he takes his watch off and puts on another watch, takes his pass off, and puts on another pass. Right. and then goes on the. The elevator. Yeah. And here's a bell ring nods off for a second, I guess. we'll see what happens later. Um,

Andy:

Don't wanna spoil the end of this description of this show, Yeah.

Sean:

Uh, and then comes out as somebody who works in the office there.

Andy:

and so for you, like to me, and I'm wondering, I might have had the same reaction the first time around this time. I found it really pleasing. Just the design, you know, it's, it's the production designers, Jeremy Hinde. And, uh, they were talking about the, the, the interior designs as sort of 1967 French film, uh, playtime, and, you know, you really feel that, uh, immediately it also reminded me of Alphaville, that building is, the John Deere, uh, world headquarters in, um, Illinois, designed by, uh, Aero Sarin and, uh, Kevin Roach From the 1960s. so

Sean:

they were going for a very specific aesthetic,

Andy:

a very specific aesthetic that I think that they often in the show also break. And I think you feel it immediately just from like, the kind of retro speaker. I love the, to me the details of just like, that they're static on the speaker. It's not, it's like everything's a little wonky, but it's just sort of officey, wonky, like worn down, you know, items. Um, and obviously later we see the monitors and everything, or just like, they're also sort of these retro toy kind of computers, uh, with the big monitors. so all that stuff, I mean, I, I love that level of production design attention.

Sean:

And, and, and I think you're saying that you, you processed this much more specifically watching it this time than you did the first time.

Andy:

I knew what they were doing the first time, because I love that stuff and I love that kind of, you know, that era of architecture. And, uh, so I was drawn immediately, but yes,

Sean:

I'm a fan of Louis the 14th, the Sun King, versa. You know,

Andy:

always said

Sean:

that Baroque that kind of thing.

Andy:

is sitting on a giant, garish

Sean:

Well, it's a toilet actually. It's,

Andy:

that's all right.

Sean:

yeah.

Andy:

so yes, I was engaged and aware, and especially in terms of the geometric designs of the shots and the, you know, all that stuff. I, I really love that stuff. I would say that I was more skeptical on my first viewing, which is maybe where you are in kind of just like, all right, you're doing similar, you're doing a dystopian, and I love dystopian things. But I was like, all right, we'll see. We'll

Sean:

see. Well, and for me, also, I hate this word, but I will use it anyway. I was clocking all that stuff, Uhhuh, but I was more. Just going, okay, what's going on right now? What is happening? Why are we supposed to be watching instead of like, Ooh, look at that. That's so cool.

Andy:

You know, I guess here's my counter thing,

Sean:

which is how I watch shows sometimes with that.

Andy:

That's pleasant to watch. I'm glad we watch these things separately. I, uh, you, were you not immediately struck as someone who is, you know, comes from the comedy world as I do that there was like, that there is a tone and I, this is, I consider this, uh, heavily stiller's hand of like, You know, when she throws, she throws the speaker at, at Adam Scott's head and he's just like, ah, fuck. And you know, it's just kind of, you know, and when he messes up the things like, oh wait, I

Sean:

that's after what we've been talking about. But yes, I agree.

Andy:

In the, after the, who are you?

Sean:

it definitely struck me, but I was also like, I'm still not sure what's happening right now. And it doesn't feel hilarious to me. Like sure, they're supposed to be following some procedure that he's not exactly following, so, okay. I'm on board with that. What's

Andy:

kind of fascinating here is you understand that you are, to some degree at this point in the show, a development executive's best example of the kind of note you would hate, which is they can't have them not know what's going on.

Sean:

No, I'm not saying I hated not knowing what's going on. I'm saying that was what I was compelled by.

Andy:

Oh,

Sean:

you were compelled by it. Yeah. And so I wasn't really paying attention as much to everything else as much as I was like, I want to know what's happening next. Yeah.

Andy:

All right. So in some ways it's serving its purpose, even though I'm looking at sort of the, the larger picture, particularly in the second viewing.

Sean:

That's what, that's what I was trying to get at, is it's easier the second time you watch it to not be so focused on what am I seeing right now? And just focus on what you're seeing right I guess that doesn't,

Andy:

well, You're what you're seeing right now

Sean:

versus what you're seeing right now. You know what I mean? so, and yeah. And so I'm still like, okay, offices are weird and boring and corporate jobs suck and I get it and whatever, but I'm still like, okay, what's happening right know, he goes in and he sits down, doesn't he start playing a video game on his computer? He is playing some kind of weird is he? think he is. Uh, uh, and then he gets called out to go do his, his interview, and that's where we start to go. Oh, okay. So he's the guy that we've been watching this whole time who doesn't quite understand what he's going to do because his, first day on

Andy:

Right, which is, uh, I mean it's obviously been done across film history, but um, uh, one of the most well-known, uh, practitioners is, uh, is is Tarantino esque of jumping back and then seeing the same scene from a different angle,

Sean:

Right. Right. Uh, which was interesting. I enjoyed didn't care for all the architectural Mm-hmm.

Andy:

uh, I loved it is, it is really interesting how much it hit me this time around.

Sean:

I guess we're skipping around a bit because we also didn't talk about the meeting in the where he goes to the boss. Right. And that's where you were talking about Mill Check saying tell her the office is great

Andy:

now, like the, to me it is again, in terms of design and also in terms of the satire. there, It's like a great dystopian joke to me when he is like, she's like turning in your card. He puts his card down that she gives him exactly the same, an identical looking card. But what's interesting, it's kind of throw forward to the end. And these are kind of details that I, I love this level of layering as long as two as like these are the kind of thing that I would say. I would love it if it paid off, but I wouldn't be bothered if it didn't is, I don't know if you noticed at the end when he goes to his locker and he takes off the card, he like, looks at it. Yeah. Like it's, something's different about the card. Yeah. Like the weight different. What's different? It's really interesting. Mm-hmm.

Sean:

um, so he meets with the boss, who, I think that's where, oh, the board is supposed to be there, right? Yes.

Andy:

And they're,

Sean:

they don't contribute vocally

Andy:

not be contributing vocally.

Sean:

It's just static on the radio. Um, and he gets, he gets promoted. See, again, these are, I don't know that I really am on board with this kind of thing as jokes.

Andy:

Like this kind of thing is an amnesia show. Is that what you

Sean:

mean? No, no, no. Like, like they make him the, he, the, the macro data refinement department chief, you know, and I'm like, Okay. That's a title that means nothing. Right. And that's the joke of it. Right. But it's not like, oh, that is hilarious. You know what I mean?

Andy:

So the, um, as someone I've, I've written a lot of things that are this kind of, uh, satire of corporate culture. The, so for you, the idea that they're obviously playing on the nonsense titles and departments of a, you know, of a inhumane large corporate behemoth, do you feel like it's tro Do you feel like it's,

Sean:

guess I do. I feel like we've seen that before. Uhhuh, you know, and so it wasn't, which is fine. I mean, that's the nature of a lot of stuff, but I was more interested in what was actually going on. Yeah. As opposed to please spend more time setting. The, the fallacies of corporate culture, you know? Right. because I already know that, even though I've never worked in that kind of

Andy:

it's very interesting having this conversation from this perspective. Cuz I, I think that I have a similar way of watching something, which is if I get hitched on something where I'm like, all right, but you better pay off this. Or, all right, but this thing is bothering me. I'll go along for the ride. Whereas to me, The tone of menace, that that sort of permeates everything. And it's just such an, uh, to me, an astonishing level of control in the design and the sets and the, you know, the, the stark white hallways and the way that, uh, stiller shoots the traveling shots through the hallways and, you know, the upbeat sixties music that's somehow even more upsetting. and just like the choices of like, when Milick comes in, and tra tra uh, Tillman as Mr. Milick is just like, he just becomes more and more of a revelation as the, the show goes on in terms of spoiler. He's good in the show. um, But you know what, you could argue that that's a spoiler. Cuz then I'm saying, oh, well he doesn't just, he's becomes a,

Sean:

He's important. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy:

So I apologize

Sean:

that important in the pilot, but just wait until he's the king of the world.

Andy:

Oh, Sean. Um, but, uh, they call him Mr. Milick, they're calling each other by their sort of, you know, there's a deference to him, uh, as an authority. That to me is immediately sort of ominous. That there's this hierarchical thing that's very subtle. So, to me, I was impressed that there was this nuanced hand of basically telling us a lot of things without giving us any information. Sean obviously has a contrary perspective on this.

Sean:

No, I don't really disagree with that, but I just, it took me, it took a while it felt like to get beyond, this is the world we're in and I don't know that I needed to be spending that much time figuring

Andy:

So all of the moments that to me are these great tone setters, like the long walks through the hallways, you're just like, let's cut to the chase. Yeah. Interesting.

Sean:

I mean, I've been in a

Andy:

like, How do that kinda hallway?

Sean:

Well, a cart, it was more of a Carter. so. He's gonna do, he's gonna do this interview and as they're discussing that, he's gonna do this interview. The door starts to get jiggled from the other side because the woman is trying to get out of the

Andy:

Right. This is Brit Lauer as hell.

Sean:

And, we cut back to the office. Milick wants to help out because it's not going well. And the boss won't let him be involved. and then we come back and Adam, Scott's character is in talking to the woman. And this was my favorite moment of the whole pilot am I livestock? Like, that was where her brain went in terms of like what was going on, which I thought was so, I did think that was so funny. Because it makes sense that somebody would be like, I, I can't remember anything. I don't have a purpose. I'm in a weird. Uh, were as I, have I been grown as food

Andy:

Yeah. And put into a, a nice, uh, dress. right, right. Such a funny,

Sean:

Like she's, her detective brain is working overtime, and she's like, I know what it is. I'm livestock.

Andy:

but after having, you know, found the reveal in the pilot of the, the concept of severance, do you not feel like it's sort of interesting that's like stripped. Information about the situation. Theoretically, you don't have the specifics of your identity, but you still have your identity, which is an interesting way to handle the, the sci-fi pretense. Do you find it interesting from that perspective? It's just like, that's what she would think. That's who that person, that's what what that person

Sean:

yeah. I mean, I don't know enough like, you know, I don't know enough about that. It just made sense to me that somebody like thinking too hard about that situation would Right. Would think of that Right. As a possibility fairly quickly. Yeah. You know, and it's so absurd at the same time that it was really funny to me. Yeah. and then he explains all the stuff that they're gonna do and, how, they're being watched by the bosses and, the concept of severance gets explained and all that stuff.

Andy:

Right. and did you. No. At that point

Sean:

uh, did I know

Andy:

what Did you know? Did you know what the overall concept of the show was?

Sean:

I knew nothing going

Andy:

Oh, this is perfect. And so when she's running,

Sean:

had not even read an article about it, read a review,

Andy:

And so when she's running through the door uhhuh, um, and just immediately comes back, did you have a theory on what was going on?

Sean:

I thought they were screwing up because the set was wrong

Andy:

and still, or somehow this got all the way through the editing bridge. Oh my God, we forgot to cut this.

Sean:

No, by that time I was like, okay, this is some kind of weird sci-fi thing, and there's some kind of brain thing going on. I mean, because the moment he's in the elevator on the way down and the bell rings and he just shuts his eyes and then wakes up again. Yeah. I'm like, okay, there's some kind of mind control thing. Or somehow they're making people believe something that isn't true. Yeah. I, again, I didn't know what it was, but I was like, I get it. I, I get it.

Andy:

It's really your catchphrase. No, I,

Sean:

I, I was on board with it, but I was like, okay, I kind of understand. So when she. Coming back. I Cassie?

Andy:

get it.

Sean:

I kind of

Andy:

understand. It's much less definitive

Sean:

maybe. Um, but when, so when she kept coming back in, I was like, okay. So she, you know, she can, she can't get out. Like there's whatever's going on with their brains. They're not allowed to leave. Right. Even when they say they And so to go back to the first scene, even though his character like screwed up the survey or whatever and was like, let me start over. They just knew they were perfectly in control the entire time. There was just no chance that anybody would screw things up. Which is also interesting because then when she was jiggling the door handle Right. They were sort of panicking going like, what if she gets in here? Right. You know? So it's almost as contradictory of like, we are in control. We know exactly what's going on the whole time, but something weird could happen. Right. You know? Um, which is, I guess good for dramatic tension. so, so she can't get out. She keeps seeing this stairwell in the distance and then every time she opens the door, she's back where she started Right.

Andy:

And are you satisfied by that? Well, I just don't know why you're, uh, I don't know why you gave this, uh, rotten Tomato score on this.

Sean:

I just love giving so many rotten tomatoes. No, I'm

Andy:

saying, I mean, in the moment is I guess what I'm asking. Yeah. Yeah. You are like, oh, interesting. or are you more like, I get it.

Sean:

I kinda was like, I was like, okay. Like, and, and to me that moment Yeah. Is a little bit I don't know what I would call it. Like bait and switch, like Uhhuh, we know she's not leaving because why did they set up that whole set in the first place and why was she the character they started on? I mean, what happens? She goes and walks up the stairs and Adam Scott's character goes back in the office and they're like, Hey, she's gone. Let's, let's

Andy:

be

Sean:

you guys reveal, you guys know it's Phil's birthday, right? We got him a cake. So will you just sign the card?

Andy:

while I agree with you, isn't there an element You know, it's, uh, what we might call schmuck bait in the, in the, uh, industry, which is,

Sean:

shine a light on it.

Andy:

you know, it's, they're presenting a what is this gonna happen? Or we, as the writers are presenting that when it's like, well, we know this isn't gonna happen, right? So yes, I agree with that, but at the same

Sean:

so I'm learning new things all the time. Like mystery, box, schmuck, Have you never heard schmuck? be I have. Again, it's not something I talk about all the time, Yeah. I forgot that that was what it was called.

Andy:

But

Sean:

I say bait and switch,

Andy:

it's much less Jewish. Um, the, uh, bait

Sean:

and switch,

Andy:

oh, now you've, you Jewish it up. Um, so even though, uh, I agree that it's, that isn't the moment, it's like, to me it's okay if you're doing a bait and switch. as long as there's an interesting. Sort of reveal attached to it. So the way that they handle this reveal of like, yes, she's obviously, you know, the show's not gonna be over now, so how, how are they gonna handle it? To me, it's a clever way that they sort of handle it and shoot it

Sean:

well. And yes, right, the

Andy:

point of view shot of going through and then suddenly,

Sean:

but also I think what makes it and not just, uh, mench. Did you say mench bait or, schmuck bait.

Andy:

bait. I mean, I guess it could be mench bait, but uh,

Sean:

Depends on what you think of the person.

Andy:

Yeah, he might, if the mench is also a schmuck, I guess could, could

Sean:

happen, but it's establishing the rules of the world. It's going like this is a place that people just can't leave. And we're seeing a specific example I do think is important because it is a weird world getting weirder by the second as we start understand Right. And it needs to be justified in some And even though that's a crazy justification, it makes the fact that everybody is stuck there makes sense as opposed to. Rebelling

Andy:

the justification. You, how are you seeing the justification? How would you

Sean:

describe it? That people are not allowed to

Andy:

leave. They just can't

Sean:

even if you try to leave, you end up back where you started. Right? Right. You know, so at a certain point you have to stop expelling that energy and go, what can I do in this situation? Right. I need to surrender so they give her the video of herself explaining what's going on. Right. And so we learned that this procedure separates people's work lives from their home And they don't know about the other part of

Andy:

Right. And the real sort of, he Brit Laer talking to herself and saying, I've undergone this procedures indicating that she has basically made this decision about doing this.

Sean:

She's okay with

Andy:

it. Right.

Sean:

Which I think is another part of like building the world because it means that it's their choice to be there. They're not slaves or captive or anything like

Andy:

that. Right. Which to me is maybe this, I'm singing from my own particular slant because of my, personal issues. But to me, I like this as a theme of our greatest enemies being ourselves to, to the degree that we will even entrap ourselves in a life, you know, that we could get out of Right. Or choices or whatever it is.

Sean:

Um, then he, they get out of work and we see that they don't know each other of a sudden. Right. He almost hits her with his car. She yells at him. They don't know each other. And now we get to see his home life little bit. Right. Pretty bleak. Pretty bleak.

Andy:

Yes. I wanted to ask you, uh, cause I think, I believe they. In Jersey. I could be wrong about that, but, uh, so it's all sort of, you know, east coast kind of cold. that. I just wanted to ask you at this point, They, In terms of the climate, which is sort of unusual I think, for television because it's usually aspirational and it's a great, you know, location or it's just intentionally like freezing terrible, you know, like survival situation. This seemed unusual to me because it had a flavor of like, you know, we both grew up in, you know, I grew up in Greenwich Village, Sean grew up in Yonkers. What is

Sean:

it? Jesus new Rochelle.

Andy:

All right, well, whatever. It's,

Sean:

queen City of the Sound. Only 45 minutes from

Andy:

Broadway. Um, but we're both familiar, uh, with that. And I went to school upstate New York, so it's like we both familiar with this, you know, cold dower uh, a snow filled kind of, but not overwhelming. Like it's, it's livable, but it's just sort of can be depressing sometimes and whatever. And to me, they captured that. It very bleak in this way that I don't think I've seen on TV before.

Sean:

Yeah. I mean, the only thing I was thinking of, cause I did not peg it for the, east coast. Yeah. I was thinking more like Midwest, like I could have seen it be,

Andy:

I think that is what they're

Sean:

or something like that, you know? Yes.

Andy:

I know they, that Mark's house is in Naac, New York. and I think that the, the outside of the, uh, factory is in Jersey, but it's Bell Labs in Jersey. But, um, but yeah, I think that that is probably what they're going for. And there's also those, the houses that are all

Sean:

that was crazy to me. Like the exact same townhouses, the, the whole development that he lives

Andy:

But don't you feel like you've seen things like

Sean:

that? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Andy:

out and it's like, I'm sure they're good deals and they're probably comfortable inside.

Sean:

Oh, they're great. They're, they're like a palace

Andy:

but they

Sean:

Louis the 14th.

Andy:

Oh, Jesus. But they make me. They weird

Sean:

me out. It's very bizarre because, so it's

Andy:

perfect for this show.

Sean:

Y y you know, think about the fact that when you first move in there, I feel like when you drive home from somewhere, there's certain landscape perspectives you have and you're like, my house is the one right after this thing. Yeah. But if every house is the same, it just feels like you're like, where am I going right now? What? I'm lost, you know? Yeah. I mean, somebody could have not ever gotten home after they left one time. In a place like

Andy:

That's our, that's our show. Uh, but what, yeah, I get it. I get it. He can't find his house. But where, where's this going?

Sean:

So he's at home. He doesn't really have much of a life. He's like watching TV in front of his aquarium, drinking a beer, I think, or a wine or a, maybe it was a malt liquor of some sort. I'm not sure

Andy:

are the other possibilities, Sean?

Sean:

Whiskey, long Island Iced Tea, which would've screwed up the geography of the whole thing.

Andy:

Probably not a pina colada.

Sean:

no. Not a pina colada. Um, and again, it's like establishing how boring everything is because he has a weird problem with his neighbor and the trash and the recycling, and he can't explain it, and she doesn't understand it. And we never see her. We just hear her voice on the phone. Right. And it's. The kind of thing where it's, you see somebody as a homeowner going, oh my God, can you believe it? She's always putting her trash in the spot that my trash is supposed to go, which means tomorrow my trash is still gonna be here when it was supposed to be taken away, and I'm never gonna, so next week I'll have two trashes. And you know, and meanwhile you're like, this is the most boring story I've ever You know?

Andy:

And are you disconnecting or are you sort

Sean:

No, no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, again, it's world Billy. I'm like, yes, his office is boring. His life is boring. Everything is so boring, hard to make that compelling. And yet I found it compelling to watch.

Andy:

Right. but there's a, do you, did you see the distinction of like, at work he seems to be upbeat and, and his home life, which granted is equally sort of mundane. I mean, it was, is is like, you know, filled with this

Sean:

Right. There's sadness there. Even before we find out why, we know that there is, he's sad. Yeah. Which like, I fucking need to be watching that show. Um,

Andy:

you really say. I get it. it.

Sean:

I get it, Um,

Andy:

it's a different tone to get

Sean:

Uh, so his, so his sister comes over to say that he has forgotten about I got a little lost in this because it was like, we're not having dinner, dinner or something like that. Right. I don't totally understand what But this is the sort of exposition scene where we find a lot of stuff he meets with his brother-in-law and his sister and a couple of other people, and everybody has questions and somebody finds out for the first time that he's this famous severance procedure and we just get a lot of

Andy:

and, uh, at what point I'm forgetting, do you find out, do about the sort of bad things that have happened in his life? Do you

Sean:

I think it's in that scene. Okay. That he, they talk about his late wife. Right. And all of a sudden you're like, I see why this guy's so sad. Right. His wife is late to

Andy:

ever. No, Sean. No, no. You've got the wrong interpretation.

Sean:

Uh, but it gives him a big reason to be sad, you know, and then it sort of is implied, or maybe even said out loud that the reason he had this procedure was so that he could spend time every day not thinking about his dead wife. Right.

Andy:

Now there's, uh, an actor in there,

Sean:

yes. I thought of that too.

Andy:

show that Sean and I both are obsessed with. well. All right.

Sean:

Um, no, the guy from Patriot.

Andy:

Michael Cherniss. And, uh, and I'm curious, what is obviously another, you know, a fantastic performance by Michael Cherniss can do no wrong, but, uh, th this was a character that kind of did bump me

Sean:

This was the brother-in-law.

Andy:

The brother-in-law, yeah. Who's married to his sister. That's what a brother-in-law is, who's pregnant sister in the show. And, um, so yeah, so that game, uh, as we say an improv parlance, um, of they're not having dinner cuz he's making a point about how food, you know, is really what we should more about connecting and all this stuff. How did you feel

Sean:

I didn't totally follow it, and I was like, I'm not sure what they're trying

Andy:

do. And was your thought, you say you don't follow it, you feel like this does tie to what's off in this world?

Sean:

I, that's what I thought, but I didn't quite see how,

Andy:

and to me, this is sort of the problem with this particular aspect and I think it's one of the few, for me, missteps of this pilot is. There's an element, you know, we've already hit again, an improv parlance the first unusual thing. you know, we'll, we'll sort of give you some, a little bit of slack to figure out what's going on and not ask too many questions and whatever. And so then if you're adding another thing in the outside world, it's like, does that connect to the inside world? And that's where I was kind of fr And also, you know, he, that character, while he's playing it in a very funny way and he does a lot of funny things, it's like, we're not sure, are we supposed to be looking at him as like, oh, he's another weird thing in this world. And it's somehow connected because everything grows out of the main. Pretense of severance. All to me, all the weirdness to a large degree grows out of that. And the design and the weird separated, because once you go back to the normal world, you know, it seems like he has an iPhone. And, and, uh, that was an, an element that was a big thing for me of like the, the

Sean:

I think it was a, it was a galaxy.

Andy:

was it a Galaxy? I think it was an iPhone. Oh, an iPhone. Because I seem to remember the Yeah. Oh yeah. It's definitely an iPhone. No question. uh, so it's like, oh, I guess we're in, if not our world, you sort of one step away from our world. So then his thing is like, you could definitely say, oh yeah, there are people who are thinking a, you know, a, a woowoo kind of, a self-congratulatory fashion like this guy does in the real world. But that, that is something that bumped me when I watched

Sean:

yeah. It was like, why, how does this connect to everything we've seen so far Is it's supposed to be, and I still don't quite have an answer to this, but is it supposed to be that there's a shortage of food now or any, you know, I was trying to understand it and I think I just

Andy:

but they think I do. They do eventually say, and that's, they do make clear that it's like, this is this guy's statement that he's making.

Sean:

I guess they made it clear, maybe I just didn't pay attention closely enough.

Andy:

Um, I guess it's open into interpretation. I feel like to me it was clear that it was his, I don't know if you'd say sort of self-congratulatory, you know, big statement he's making to have a dinner that was not, has no food so that he can kind of, you know, basically they can all blather on and congratulate themselves on how important this is. But I don't, I don't think that it's supposed to connect to the.

Sean:

it was also weird that his name was Rick on, of the kids in

Andy:

interesting. That I didn't even spot that connection, but the, to me it's sort of like that, that is another thing of like, oh, he has a weird name. He is a weird guy. He's sort of self-congratulatory. Another thing that was a big thing, I'm trying to remember if it's even resolved and I guess it's better if I don't say, why the sister who seems so cool and chill, that guy is this, with this guy who's such an ass and they're playing him for laughs in almost more of a broad sketch way. The other, I would say that the other, even though he is playing it very well,

Sean:

well the two times he came in with a wig on it was very strange.

Andy:

And when he came in dressed as a banana, it was like, well, I don't know. Is this part of the severance concept or is this, um, that being said, uh, I'm curious what your take is on the, the side guess at that dinner.

Sean:

Uh, I don't really have a take. I felt like they were there just to,

Andy:

you gotta have a take,

Sean:

shots. It it was, it was funny. Like one of them I felt like was just wide-eyed and nodding the entire time, just agreeing with everything.

Andy:

I looked at her up and her name's Grace Rex and uh, I was sure I knew her from something

Sean:

I felt the same way. She just has a very appealing face I don't know

Andy:

knows. But whatever the case, I thought she was great. And the little, I wonder how much, if there was any improvisation because there's, there's moments and Zach Cherry is one of the main, people in the office who was from, definitely the improv world, in New York, who's like, you know, the, the, the actor that's sort of full of complaints and he's trying to get the waffle perk. There's a rhythm that certain actors that come from improv have like a naturalness. That is when the, when the director lets them kind of go. And like he was, he's, he's fantastic. Uh, Zach Cherry is, and and even though, this Grace Rex is just sort of a moment in it, it's just like she has like a moment. I think that's off, off screen. She's off camera, she says, like when they're talking about literature and she goes, I love literature. This is such a great side joke.

Sean:

Yeah. Um, two other things I thought were interesting in that whole sequence. One is, uh, that we find out that he used to be a history professor. Right. Which I thought just thematically was interesting to me. Like the fact that their memories are being wiped Yeah. there's no, and then the other thing I thought was interesting was, and again, this did feel a little sketch like to me. Yeah. But when they go into the bedroom and there's three beds for the baby that hasn't even been born yet. Yeah. Because the baby doesn't want to change. Like let the baby change beds on its own. Which again, to me is like the evolution of a life cycle and like remembering where you came from and where you are and where you're going. Versus what they're doing with the severance thing where they have no idea where, you know, what happens when and what happens

Andy:

And does that are you saying you like that because it ties in thematically or you dislike it cuz it's heavy handed or

Sean:

I guess I'm saying I did like that it tied in thematically. I didn't like it because it was heavy handed. Oh, there you

Andy:

go.

Sean:

no. I thought it worked, but it did feel a little silly with the beds,

Andy:

the that, yes, that whole strain is something that kind of bugs me. Uh, a thing that I did like is that they offhandedly, and I don't know that I noticed it this much in the initial viewing. Um, they offhandedly refer to Lumen, the company that, Adam Scott works for, uh, began in the 18 hundreds making topical cells. So that

Sean:

right. We find out that it's, one person thinks it's a tech company, one person thinks it's a medical company,

Andy:

Which is another classic dystopian sort of,

Sean:

just they're, they're in charge of everything. They're a giant corporation that does whatever they want,

Andy:

know? But the reason I, I like it so much is that I think it's, it's kind of in the pilot a little bit already in little details, but they, in the 18 hundreds, they were selling topical cells. So snake oil is basically, and just sort of sends, it starts this aesthetic I will say, so you start to see a little later that's kind of like, uh, not, not literally, but sort of in, in the design of the lumen world of like traveling huckster carts in the old west kind of thing. That's like, to me, really interesting and a nice weaving in of that aesthetic.

Sean:

Um, then we see him in bed at night. He's in one of the beds. I, I forget if he's in the race car bed or the helicopter bed or tug boat. Think it's the race, car bed, tugboat bed. Um, and he sees somebody on the, on outside, in the, in the woods. Very strange. he's not quite sure what he's seeing. Is he hallucinating? Is there a person out there he doesn't

Andy:

Right. And then that guy goes out to take a look? Uh, no. He goes out into the woods. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, the figure, there's like, uh, you know, there's like headlights on Adam Scott's face and so he just looks away for a second and he disappears. And we of course know that the only person that that could be when you look away and they're gone is Batman. So that's who we assumed that this is. Right. Spoiler

Sean:

even seen the bat

Andy:

yet. No. and that to me then I was excited cause was like, oh great, this is gonna be a Batman show. It's sort of a back backdoor sort of

Sean:

Batman but which, Batman? That was my question, which is, is Keaton back?

Andy:

Is it gonna be Affleck? What are they, you know, how are they playing this?

Sean:

Adam West. That would've been difficult, but you could do it digitally with Stiller's attention to detail.

Andy:

That's true. Just a full silly CG Adam West in the middle of this, it's

Sean:

called Lumen

Andy:

Who could Adam West.

Sean:

Um, right. So then we, this is where we see the full house development. After this, he's clean again, very boring, like cleaning the gutters on his house. And then he goes to, he, he gets a gift card earlier because of the, the injury he receives. He has a gift card to Pips, he goes to Pips to get some food. and that's when the guy shows up mystery box continues.

Andy:

Well, they, the mystery box kind of pays off cuz they'd referred to throughout the show. His best friend. pd, And Pete being gone and it, it kind of makes sense that he would, he would be as upset as he is because the way it's presented in the show is basically like this is their life. Like you imagine shit really does feel, feel like it would be hell of like, you leave work and you are immediately back at work. There is no moment where you are not at work, right? So if that is the case and your best friend is the one shining light there, that would destroy you. Yeah. He actually takes it, even though he's clearly emotionally affected, he takes it much better than I would take it.

Sean:

so this guy has information that he's saying, if you wanna know what's really going on, basically you have to go to this place follow it, but basically there's something weird going on with the severance stuff.

Andy:

Yeah. And I don't think you're supposed to understand Right. That much more, the things that are interesting to me about it is, they're doing the things again. as Sean would say, like you've seen in these other, other things like it, where it's like, oh, the guy comes in and you're whatever. And what I like about it is, and I feel like he's

Sean:

like Gene Hackman in conspiracy theory.

Andy:

That's right. Um, who, it's funny, you should wait. I think I'm thinking of something else. You thinking about enemy of the state,

Sean:

maybe. Enemy of the state. Right, Conspiracy theory was Mel Conspiracy

Andy:

theory

Sean:

was enemy. Enemy of the state was Will Will

Andy:

Smith. Will Smith. And what I loved about Enemy of the State was, I was thinking about this recently. I was like, should I go back and watch Enemy of the State? Which I don't know, is that good a movie? But Gene Heckman is playing himself in the conversation, With like, they just like, were like, let's just make it the same character. Obviously he is. He's in a cage where he is listening to everything. He's good with all this tech. It's obviously his character from the conversation, but they're not paying any rights cuz they don't name him by name. They just, cats' the same guy. And I'm like, that's fine. I'll watch a fucking sequel of that fucking whack job. Uh, so I love that. But one another thing to just tie it into what we're talking about is this. There's a real sort of feeling and vibe of. of seventies conspiracy thrillers like that, like seconds with Rock Hudson, like, uh, like, the Parallax View, which even has a lot of the symmetrical designs. It's just really, it has that vibe and, and to me in an effective way. But the thing I was gonna say was, in that scene, you're leaning on it in this kind of ominous, you know, heavy-handed way. But then they're like, you know, Adam Scott calls it out immediately, oh, you know, what are you gonna tell me that you know, you're in danger cuz they're chasing, cuz you've got dessert. And he's like, yes, I am gonna tell you that. so they call, they call it out, but they also have moments that of comedy where, He says like, you know, so what? We were like, friends. He

Sean:

you're my best

Andy:

friend. I'm, I'm your

Sean:

best friend, best friend, and

Andy:

you're my very good friend. It's just like, it ends on a funny, you know, like, oh a, that's funny. B that is the kind of guy that Adam, the Adam Scott that we've seen in the real world. N frankly, the one in the is who severed would be friends with. Right. So it serves both purposes.

Sean:

Yeah. And then we have another big mystery box reveal, which is that the person who's getting the trash all confused and the recycling all confused is the boss from And I'm not sure about this, but it seemed to me

Andy:

when that she was playing, actually, Patricia Arquette in a meta turn.

Sean:

she was playing Patricia Arquette from True Romance.

Andy:

right. And that's why she was wearing the leopard

Sean:

My name is Alabama.

Andy:

Um, You start to hear the little tinkly music in the background from Badlands.

Sean:

Uh, no. That she was not severed. Like, in other words, she's aware of what's going Right. I don't know if that tracks with the fact that she can't figure out how the recycling

Andy:

that's a huge plot line really. That is, I'm, this is a spoiler. It is all about the recycling. That is what the spine of this whole,

Sean:

Uh, but so she is clearly keeping an eye on him for some reason Right. don't. Right. That we don't really

Andy:

know. Yeah. And do you, did you read that from the what? Like what

Sean:

community? I don't know. Just like the way she, because doesn't she say like, you're a good person or something like

Andy:

that. Yeah. You're a Good

Sean:

man. You're, yeah. And, and it just felt like she was supposed to be Aware of what was going on with herself in the

Andy:

the office. I think you're right. And I have, you know, to me it was the Uhhuh. Uh, but, but the thing that is interesting about that to me is that you know, however it plays out whether that's true or it's not true, they lean into it in a way that is like, that is a sure hand on that moment to communicate information. And I think they really do the, the exposition, which is especially hard in a show where you're trying to keep so many things secret is really well-handled to me, in this show. And another example of that is like earlier when. when his sister says to him, and we don't know she's a sister at this moment, Hey, you gotta come to dinner. You owe me this. And he's like, why don't I owe you this? She, he goes, remember that time when we were kids? And I was just generally a way better sibling than you. Like, that's a joke. It's true to the, it really tells us more about their interaction as, as siblings than it does that their siblings. Right. Um, and that's just really a nice light touch on the exposition, which is very difficult to do. I

Sean:

always talk about that in terms of pilot exposition related to early improv class scenes. Yeah. Where students first figure out that they're supposed to know each other and how they know each other and what their relationship is. So they start doing a lot of scenes where they're like, but Andy, you're my best friend and we live in the garage behind the, you know, and it's just all exposition. Right. And that's one of the hardest things about pilots is because we don't know anything about any of these people. So how do you get that information out the first time you see them? Right. Uh, because it is important for us to know how they know each other, Right.

Andy:

because if you don't do that, then Sean would be in the audience going like, how do you know each other? I'm

Sean:

also. We get it. We get it.

Andy:

we get it. Well actually I don't get it.

Sean:

We don't get

Andy:

it. well now I get it. You said you were, um, I really, it's interesting cuz now that I'm looking back on it, I think that maybe I was closer to what your, the reaction you're describing the first time. Although I think I appreciate it more just from a design standpoint because I, I love sort of just the visuals and all that, and I love that kind of world building cause there's so much, uh, to me, effective world building. but I would love to watch more of this with you and that's why this is now a severance podcast. Every week we

Sean:

would I, I would like to watch the rest of the show just because I did enjoy it. I do want to see where it goes. And I've heard from so many people that like, If you just stick with it. The last episode is

Andy:

Oh, I don't know if I would put that kind of pressure on all of it, but the I do, I wanna hear you just go blow by, blow on. Uh, but it is, yeah. It's funny when people say that to you about a show

Sean:

Yeah. I'm like, why do I have to wait that

Andy:

long? To me, that's a perfect example of a spoiler. Um, and take

Sean:

it back. I would even, I spoiled it without ever even seeing the

Andy:

would say just watch the show and

Sean:

enjoy the show. Um, and so you are, but you're saying also that it benefited from repeated viewings, so it's sort of similar to like the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Andy:

which it's interesting. Do you think it's a better show? Maybe this isn't something you can answer cuz it's just all perspective. You think it's a better show overall if when you go back to the first episode you're like, I'm really enjoying this even more because now I have the benefit of really being in the vibe and understanding stuff and whatever. Or do you think it's better if it's just like immediately like it's got me, I'm in,

Sean:

I feel like the second one is better, but I also, I feel like there's two ways to go with the first example where there's shows that I really didn't like the first time I watched them and then I watched them again and I was like, oh, okay, now I'm more on board. And there's other shows where I watched them a second time and they were just much, there was so much more going on that I didn't even realize the first time.

Andy:

Because I think a lot of shows, and I actually think our, you know, some of our, our favorites, the Wire and Deadwood are perfect examples, uh, as we'll probably talk about this quite a bit. That there's a certain phenomena, uh, that I think is a generally accept upon thing. That's like fourth episode sort of, I dunno if we call it syndrome or, or just phenomena where it's, where it's like first three episodes you're like, all right, all right, what, what are we doing? And by the fourth episode, which is, this is definitely my experience of the wire and I think maybe Deadwood's, a little muddier. I was like, ah, I'm in. And to a certain degree, I wonder if that is what was in those first three episodes and from another perspective, I wonder if it's just the show is training you how to watch the show. Like what the rhythm of it's gonna be, what to

Sean:

And I know just to, just to make this clear point, because we are gonna come back to it again and again. That is not how I felt about the Wire. Like, we've had this discussion before where you're like, I was not on board till the fourth episode, and I'm like, the first scene of the first episode, you were blew my mind. Right? And I was like, this is a show I wanna But I

Andy:

you, gotta remember, I, you know, you didn't have the show recommended to you by Sean Conroy. I was like, I'm going to defy Sean. I do not need to watch this show if he likes it. Clearly something's

Sean:

it. seems like it

Andy:

must be garbage. Okay. Thank you for joining us. if you liked this episode where we talked about severance, we have already, this is how fast we work, we've already recorded Episode 2, uh, our coverage of Episode 2 of Severance on our Patreon. Which is www. patreon. com forward slash. Uh, CopilotsTV. Uh, no hyphen.

Sean:

no, there is not a hyphen and nor is there the words no hyphen.

Andy:

That's right. Uh, although by one of our no hyphen t shirts, we'll have that up soon. anyway, support the patron, uh, even if you don't, you can join, you know, for free to be alerted about what's up there. at Copilots TV. you know, we got a lot of other stuff there. We got Spartacus episode two. We got a Mike Mitchell bonus content interview. our producer, Kevin also has let us know that we actually do have a tip line after

Sean:

all, really do have a tip line.

Andy:

All of our joking about a tip line. so

Sean:

let me ask you this, Andy, what kind of tips do you think people like, what kind of tips do you want? Do you want people to call in and be like rusty nail in the fourth race? Like what kind of. I mean, I

Andy:

would, I would love a few, a few OTB suggestions. I need it. But, obviously call in, comment, a question, anything you want. Uh, one thing that is, we'd be very excited about is if you have any insider information about questions that Sean and I have brought up, probably me. I'm the big question asker. But, um, I, any of us, or you have any kind of perspective on anything, feel free, send it in, give us a voice, uh, mail, um, Call it

Sean:

in, don't send it, call it.

Andy:

or, you know, send us an email, all the information is on the Patreon page.

Sean:

and, Are we going to play people's voicemails?

Andy:

I don't know, maybe at the end, we'll see. If not, we probably will have a mailbag episode, I'm guessing.

Sean:

if we're gonna play the voicemails out loud, I have to get a voice modulator

Andy:

so that you can, you can send in your own, you can send in your own voicemail. Please

Sean:

don't say that out loud,

Andy:

Uh, send it into 8 0 2 copilot, uh, which is somehow Kevin got ahold of it, which is 8 0 2 2 6 7 4 5 6 2. Say anything you want. Leave any tip you want. Uh, lastly, if you like our show, it helps us out a lot if you leave five stars on iTunes or Spotify. And, uh, not only that, but you get your pilot's wings! Not a real thing. It's just, uh, we're just saying you get your pilot's wings.

Sean:

There's a lot of people out there with pilot's wings who don't actually have pilot's wings since they're not real. How many? I know there's at least 50!

Andy:

Whoa! Join the exclusive club!

Sean:

So that's it, that's the end of the show. We'll see you next time on whatever we decide to call this show.

Andy:

Andrew Second Co-Pilots, which on Conroy.

Sean:

I'm okay with that.