CoPilots - TV Writers Talk TV Pilots | Comedians, Actors, and Writers Reviewing TV Episodes

6 - PEN15 or Sean as a Millennial Tween Girl

• Kevin McNulty • Episode 6

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Andy and Sean discuss the universality of PEN15's 2019 pilot.

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Sean Conroy (IG, Twitter, TikTok)
Andy Secunda (IG, Twitter)

Produced by Agustin Islas

Comedy Writers, TV Review, Funny Reviews, Entertainment, UCB Improv, Fun Reviews, Pilot Writing, Pilot Episode, First Episode, TV Writing, Comedian Reviews

Sean:

Uh, do you want to intro the show?

Andy:

What? Is that what we do? I don't even, I guess we don't have a thing yet. No. Ooh, welcome to the Gold Pilots. It's our energy. Yeah. I'm Andrew

Sean:

Segunda. My name is Sean Conroy.

Andy:

My guest today is Sean Conroy. Thank you. So let's get into the thing. The thing being the pilot. the pilot being pen 15. Oh, see, I was trying to tee you up. I Okay, okay. It doesn't even matter. No, no, no. Okay. It's pen 15. No. Cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. Let's not pretend uhhuh that we have any, any kind of rhythm or elegance or, yeah.

Or

Sean:

a way that it we're, set me up. Set me up to say, go ahead.

Andy:

Basically, if we were an old time, you know, Catskill show, this would be the equivalent of just each of us stumbling out at some point when the audience was half filling the theater.

Sean:

Mr. Brown, where are

Andy:

you?

Sean:

Hey, everybody. Welcome to co pilots. I am Sean Conroy

Andy:

and I'm Andy Secunda.

Sean:

on this podcast. We talk about TV pilots, the first episodes of television shows. Sometimes pilots become long running series. Others don't make it past that first episode.

Andy:

We're going to talk about all of them. The great pilots, the bad pilots, the weird pilots, the forgotten pilots. We are TV writers, but it should be noted that we are the dumbest TV writers you know. So, all of these are just our dumb opinions. So dumb. The way I thought we would start today is that you are the one who said, this is what you would like to do next. Mm-hmm. You have a passionate feeling about this show? This is a show that I've certainly heard from all ages, across the spectrum. People saying they love this show, they're obsessed with it. I've seen one episode of it from a friend who wanted to show it to me. You had not seen the pilot? I had not seen the pilot. I thought it was amazing. I just had other things that I sort of was prioritizing to watch. so this was the first time I'd seen this pilot. Mm-hmm. I guess I want to hear your, your entry point into this show and your experiences with it. I don't

Sean:

remember why I watched it the first time. I don't know what caused me to go, here's a show that might be interesting. but whatever it was from the moment the show started, it hit very hard for me. Right. You know, it just very, I very much identified as a millennial 12 year old girl,

Andy:

you know, really spoke to your experience. Yeah. I mean, that is, just to get into it, that is the most amazing thing about it, is that it's, so, it could not be more specific, it's these two women's perspective in their, experiences, um, even if they weren't friends in high school. But it really is, emblematic of the universality of it in that it's like, you know, they weren't the same generation as me. I wasn't a teenage girl. and. It's just like, it's just putting a finger on that awkwardness Yeah. Of being a teenager. particularly an early teenager. and it just nails it.

Sean:

Yeah. I mean, I had a couple thoughts like, is there something, cuz for me, seventh grade was so specific in a variety of ways. Is there something about that specific year that's universal or is it more just around that age? You have that feeling? And I also was thinking about it in terms of like, I don't know if this is true of everybody, but certainly for me, there are still times that I feel that way in life, you know, with anytime going into a new situation with a group of people, Anyway.

Andy:

Yeah. Well, For me, the aspect of that age that it's, so, evocative and, and rich. And I think this is also the game, if you will, in improv terms of the show to me, because it is like, so many things are so Sealy painful, painful and upsetting in the show about how they're treated or their hopes and dreams that are dashed or they're, you know, this deep feeling of alienation is, uh, that the counterbalancing thing is the game of the show, which is they're cocky, they're, they're so emboldened and they embolden each other. In such an atypical way to that age. And to me, that grows out of that. These are 13 year olds that are like, we're adult women now. We are adults because we're

Sean:

in seventh

Andy:

grade. Exactly. And we're gonna be awesome now. Now it's all gonna come together. Mm-hmm. Now we're gonna be powerful. Now we're gonna be attractive, And now we're gonna be popular. it's this illusion of, future potential that is about to be realized, which of course is untrue at 13 years old.

Sean:

for, for most people. For most people. Yeah. I mean, I, for me it was great.

Andy:

Well, you've, that's, these are always the, the con, the contrast between

Sean:

stories, but I just, I just felt like there were so many things, football king at

Andy:

13.

Sean:

I always see the starting quarterback on the local college team. Uh,

Andy:

the only 13 year old prom king.

Sean:

But, but that is, that is part of the specificity of it is there are so many moments, just moments in the pilot that I'm like, that exact thing or feeling or whatever is so relatable to me. From that time in

Andy:

my life. Do you wanna just crack open the pilot and get into it? Or do, do you want it? Cuz I'm sure you'll have moments to touch on

Sean:

like that. I mean, just to what you were just saying, the very, the cold open is them basically saying, we are now adult women. We are going to rule the world. You know, know like they're having a conversation on the phone and they're sort of going, this is gonna be the best year of our lives. Right. it took me a while to figure this out. I wanna say a while, I mean several watchings of the show. Yeah. Because I was seeing it through my own experience where I went into seventh grade as a new student in a new school. And that's not what these guys are doing. They are coming back to the same school for seventh

Andy:

grade. Right. And I, never at any point, not even my senior year, did I feel like I'm gonna be the guy this year. Right. I was always sort of a malcontent, right. Even, even when I became more popular, I was still, I was still sort of somehow guarded my outsider position. Right. so I never really had that, which is why it's so fascinating to me, to view it through their eyes. Uh, and I wonder if that grows from, you have your one. Person that is basically, it's almost like a, a cult situation of like feeding whatever narrative you are telling yourself.

Sean:

You, you're saying, because their relationship is so, almost, shark and remora or something like that. Like, not parasitic, but they're both. So, I mean, that's one of the things I love about the show is how their friendship is so close and so self-reinforcing. But you're saying that in some ways that might be the thing that puts them in this head space of like, it's all gonna work out. We're doing great.

Andy:

Yes. And you could argue it's both like their fatal flaw mm-hmm. Is their ability to del dilute each other. Mm-hmm. And it is also the saving grace of them as a duo, because they're there to support each other. Their, their friendship is true and pure, and they stand by each other and,

Sean:

there's that awful moment of like realizing that she has been sort of nominated for ugliest girl in school. Right.

Andy:

And did she be nominated or she had been elected? Uh,

Sean:

I don't think it was a formal vote that was taken. Okay. It was just kind of a general, but they, they were gonna put her name on the list, which she didn't find out until later, but there was an actual list. Right. Um, and to speak to your point of how cocky they are. She sort of takes it in stride when they, when they say like, oh, these guys really like you. They think your haircut is amazing. And she turns around to, to her friend and says, it's all happening. They're like, it's happening. We're all, it's all right. Everything

Andy:

we, everything we wanted is, is ha coming together? Yeah. Yeah.

Sean:

Um, and then they, then they find out that that's not actually the case and that she's been, she's been elected or nominated or selected or chosen or whatever, as ugliest girl in school. And, she's so upset and she's furious and she's depressed and she's. You know, just feels awful, obviously, as anybody would in that situation. And, and feels like her friend doesn't get it. Maya feels like Anna doesn't get it. And she's like, don't you get it? This is the worst. You know, being named the ugliest girl in school is the worst, you know, the, you know, whatever. And, and Anna says, and I can't, I didn't write down what she says, but she basically says, I guess I've been insulted the worst. Because she's basically saying, I love you. I'm your friend. Right. And it's this incredible moment of like, support and, and affection between them,

Andy:

you know? Right. and uh, what's impressive also is that they. You kind of feel a lot of the turns coming. And a lot of them are sort of like, you know, they got the bullies and facing off with the bullies. There's a lot of aspects that actually harken back, not just in general, to high school stories and high school pilots, but specifically freaks and geeks. They have a big, uh, bully pilot. They have a thing, a bully plot. They have, you know, stuff with the crushes. It's all these sort of standby, uh, tropes. Uh, but what's impressive here is you, you know, all right, well, it's not just gonna be that, you know, that these boys like her and that everything's great and that her haircut worked

Sean:

out. I, I would go even farther than that because that moment where they talk about her haircut and how great it looks, and, you know, it's, it's like hearing the music in Jaws, right? You know, you're like, oh God, this

Andy:

is what's coming and your stomach starts to tighten. Oh, yeah. But here's what I'm, here's here's my point. Even though you feel that coming. Which would sort of, uh, and to some degree numb out. What ha your reaction mm-hmm. They go so hard in the, uh, augus. Is that what it's, is that what they Ugis? Ugis? Yes. Mm-hmm. Which funny pronunciation. I mean,

Sean:

I guess, you know, there's, that, that's the more colloquial pronunciation is August.

Andy:

I guess it depends what, uh, you know, what town you're from, what part of the country.

Sean:

Yeah, sure. It's like online versus

Andy:

inline, you know? Um, But yeah, when that comes up and that is what it is, it's so much worse than anything you could have possibly imagined. And it really is just like, oh God, no, no. Maya, no.

Sean:

Uh, so, okay, so to go back to the cold open, great. Which they're, you know, they're just looking at their yearbook, they're talking about who got boobs at camp. Camp was such a big thing at that time. I don't know. Did you go to camp in, in summertime when you were a kid? I did. I hated it. Yeah. I never, that's one might expect I was never allowed to go, except for one year when my parents couldn't afford to pay for the full month uhhuh. So they paid for the second half of the month. Oof. Not even the first half. So by the time I got there, everybody was already best friends with each other. And what

Andy:

that see that tells me. Is they were like, well, we're gonna wanna break after two weeks, so let's make it halfway through the month, which of course puts you behind the

Sean:

eight ball. Well, and to be fair, it was only a day camp. Like it wasn't a sleepaway camp. So I never, I never even went to sleep. How do you think

Andy:

you would've probably done better at sleepaway camp than I did. For me, I was such a sort of, yeah, homebody, even as a child, Uhhuh, but I was sort of like, I don't wanna go to a place where I'm sleeping in a room with a bunch of other people. I think

Sean:

I would've been very scared, but I think it would've worked out okay. Yeah. You know? Um, but instead I went to this second half of this camp for two weeks where they basically tried to drown me while I. Every day they would hold me underwater in the pool. Oh. Real hardcore. And I also could not open the lock to my locker. Yeah. I always had to go get somebody to, like, I never figured out how to do a combination lock, you know? Yeah. I was very young. It was like 11th grade,

Andy:

and that's why Conroy went into comedy. So you had not sprouted at that point, or you had, they were holding this very tall person?

Sean:

No, no, no. It was, it was like, it was like fourth or fifth grade, so I was not a big kid by then. Okay. And even when I sprouted, I mean, by the time I graduated from high school, yeah. I was very tall, but I weighed like 108 pounds. Right. Like, I didn't get fat until much later, you know? Right. Um, but anyway. So they're, they're in the rooms. They're talking about the yearbook. They're talking about who got boobs at camp and who did what with who. And then I think it's my favorite moment only because of the specificity of it. And it brought so much rushing back to me, even though I wasn't in school at that time. Is the moment when you hear she's, they're talking on the phone and you hear the modem kick in because the brother is trying to get on aol. Yeah. And she starts screaming. Maya starts screaming into the phone cuz she's so annoyed and Anna realizes that Maya's not even paying attention to her anymore. And you just see the expression on her face. It's just a brilliant moment. It's

Andy:

scene. It's also a thing that would be in any period show. And I'm, I've written on the Goldberg, so I, I know, uh, I know a lot about this, but. You know, it's like, it's, and Goldberg's, we just didn't hide it. We just went right for it. We set up, Hey, this is the touchstone we're gonna be attacking in this episode. And then you, you know, maybe there are other things along the way, but this was, this is sort of a, a fun version of this because they deal with this emotional scene and, you know, Maya saying, do you think I've changed it all? You know, in the off, off season? Is that what you call when you're not at school? Yes. Um, and it's like this really deep connection that is interrupted by this thing that is just a touchstone of AOL setting the time. Mm-hmm. Immediately. Right. Which is such a, a great, quick way to do it. That's, you know, almost underlining the, the trope of this is, you know, we're, we're using our, our, our temporal touchstone here. Right? I

Sean:

mean, they set it up as 2000 right from the beginning. Cuz you see the yearbook that they're looking at is that year. Yeah. But the, the visceral sound of the, of the thing for me, it just brought me back to that time, you know, of like, oh my god. Yes. You know? Yeah. And my brother, you know, Suji was always on the, oh, he

Andy:

really had a lot of, lot of crossovers. Yeah. It was, it was quite

Sean:

a, it was quite an experience. so then we're outta the cold open. We're into the, we're into the opening, you know, now we're setting the world because before it was just the two of them in their bedrooms. Now we have to go outside the world. And it's Maya's haircut. She has fucked it up in the middle of the night and she gets, uh, help from her mother. Um, they get in the car cuz they're carpooling on their way to school. There's just so many great, funny little moments over the course of

Andy:

their, the haircut in, in of itself is such a great, like Yeah. She has the, again, the cockiness, the hubris of I'm gonna cut my own hair. It looks awesome. Yeah. And fighting her mother on cutting it, but she can see what's coming. Right. And her mother giving her the worst possible version that's like, uh, for a, for a, a woman, uh, like, you know, five to seven years younger than, than, uh

Sean:

Right. And she's, it's, it, it really makes me laugh so hard every time. Just

Andy:

screaming. I had that haircut at some point. Oh

Sean:

yes. I mean, literally I have four younger brothers. We all had that haircut. Sure. All at the same time for my entire childhood. Yeah. When I say childhood, I'm talking about, until I went away to college. Basical basically I had that

Andy:

haircut. Just, can you gimme the Marcy from peanuts is what they would ask you. Um, but. Uh, Marcy was a side character in peanuts who was, uh, with four glasses. Did, did That was the theme. So,

Sean:

Um, And then there's, you know, such great interplay. I mean, one of the things that I think is really hard in a pilot, and I always, I, I always focus on this, is defining the relationships differently between different characters. Like everybody feels differently about different people. I, in this room, there are three people right now. I do not care for you. Sure. Kevin is appealing, not my best friend. Right. But we're getting there. Right. You know?

Andy:

Um, do you think my presence is holding back your ability to connect more with him?

Sean:

I don't even think about your

Andy:

presence. Oh, okay. Well understand. That's not holding anything back. Okay. Then that's, I'm glad about that.

Sean:

But there's such a great dynamic between first, between. Maya and Anna and Suji. Yeah. Where as soon as Suji gets in the, in the car and calls, I forget what he calls Maya, like an idiot or something like that. Yeah. She's like, don't call me that. And Anna immediately takes Suji side and is like, move your bag, Maya. Like, like Right. She's so on board with anything Suji says.

Andy:

Right. And you can see that she has a crush on him. Yeah. And she's trying to engage him and Yeah.

Sean:

Uh, and setting those relationships up so quickly is just an incredible art unto itself in a pilot. And they do it so well in this. And then Sam comes in and he has a specific relationship with everybody except not really with Suji, which is kind of specific too. Like, Suji is too cool for Sam,

Andy:

you know? Right. There's another, yeah. There's so many different, very subtle distinctions in tone of a teenager at that age. Mm-hmm. Of like, and they're all. What's, what's, what's so authentic about this is, except for Anna and Maya, they all have that and is what, again, the brilliance of, of casting these actual 13 year olds is they all have that kind of blank haze over their eyes mm-hmm. Of just like being slightly disconnected or overwhelmed by every situation. Thus, they can't really engage fully in them.

Sean:

which also allows Anna and Maya to project whatever they want to on these

Andy:

people, and which is why it makes sense for them to be, you know, 35 year old women playing 13 year olds. Because it really gets to the heart of, what outsiders, what aliens they really are. I assume everyone who is listening to this has seen the pilot, but do we need to stack to some degree. The pretense of this show. I think we should retack it. Let's retack. Mm-hmm. The prete. Well, we haven't stacked it already. Okay, so stack it. Yes. We can't stack retack it until

Sean:

we do it. Get Stack house in here. Which one? Jerry? The n b A player. Uh, so what's the premise of the show?

Andy:

I, you're the fan.

Sean:

Uh, just that two girls who are best friends are going into the seventh grade and what's going on with them. And then the thing I think you're looking for is that they are played by 30 something year old women. My

Andy:

Akin and, uh, Anna Conk,

Sean:

whereas all the other characters are actually played by kids. It's sort of the reverse of your classic, you know, Dawson's Creek or something where all the teenagers are played by 46 year old hot people, you know?

Andy:

Yeah. Which is like a great, and I don't even know that that is their intended parody. I think from quick research on, and they, they came from kind of a performance art background and then kind of made their way into comedy. Um, and it has that feeling of something, of a choice that's like, We wanna play with the themes and the em emotion through this device, as opposed to we're commenting in a meta way on this other form, That's, that's how Freaks and Geeks did, was sort of commenting in a meta way on the alternative type teenage show and then built out from there to the emotion. But this really makes it feel authentic to come straight from the emotion and then make that weird choice. Mm-hmm. And then build all the details around it. they created it with Sam Vileman z Vileman, I apologize if I'm not pronouncing that correctly. Yuji. and, to step back for a second, one of the things that I'm always the most intrigued by is, how did they sell this? Yeah. Because they weren't names. Now they are, they weren't names. How do you get someone to sort of take a leap on this I don't know the exact chronology, but essentially they, had just written this as a script. It had gotten over to party over here, uh, which is uh, lonely Island. Lonely Island and Production company. Right. Which is, uh,

Sean:

who had a deal with somebody that they were supposed to be looking for stuff to make, uh, sizzle reels of basically is my understanding, right.

Andy:

Sort of in the vicinity of a hundred K budget, right. Kind of short presentations, which are sort of almost as long as a pilot, which this would be perfect for, cuz it's very shootable. and I'm sure there were many other hands involved. The the two things to me are like, oh, lonely islands involved, and they can kind of push it through at that moment. And secondly that it's, they had their proof of concept cuz otherwise, I don't know how you sell this other than if they had done a stage show, which I knew before that they had not done a stage show with them, with them

Sean:

doing this. Right. the other, factor that, I don't know how much it played in, but it was something that occurred to me this morning when I was thinking about the show. Like, I wonder how closely connected this was. And then when I was reading about it this afternoon, there was actually mention of the fact that. broad City had just come out with, uh, Ilana and Abby and people were like, we gotta get the next female comedy duo. And these guys had just made a web series after that and then come out with this idea for their show. So,

Andy:

which is a perfect fit thing to build on if you're in the mind of Broad City. Right. To be like, oh, what's something that feels like it might be the similar sensibility, but it's a different thing. Thing like best friends,

Sean:

they're both girls, right? They're, they're, they're weird. Like it's interesting. Right? And they just came along at the right time and sort of nailed it and, you know, did a, did an incredible job of putting. Something together that obviously worked for people, but it was, it's always interesting that there's a timing aspect to these things as well. A

Andy:

hundred percent. And, and that's of course why it's, it's hard to sort of reverse engineer and kinda think, oh, I'm gonna write the, because it's sometimes it's just like, we're looking for this thing right now and nobody sold it to, sold it to us yet. Right. And so that's why, you know, they just, they just had the right turn of the cards that the thing that they created that was so true to them, happened to fit the marketplace perfectly at that moment. The other thing is, that's, to me, what's so impressive about this in general, is that it feels fully baked. This very strange. Pilot this very strange world and tone. It feels like they have a complete handle on it. And I think a lot of that does come in the same way that the characters feed each other's, you know, narrative from, Stein and, and Conco, kind of like they clearly they'd been friends for over a decade. they knew each other's sensibilities. They had a, a shared sensibility for whatever the distinctions between their sensibilities were. And that's why it feels baked. and they, they also have a cinematic sensibility that I think is like, there are little touches in this pilot. Let, let

Sean:

me just interrupt you for one second. Second, go ahead. Cause I wanna talk more about what you were just talking about. Then we could talk about the weird stuff that happens when they get out of the car at the school and everything, uh, which is amazing. But one of the things that hits me over and over again when I'm reading about these things, or, or, or looking at them, is I think they wrote, they wrote a pilot script that was like 60 pages long, right at the beginning of this process. And I read somewhere that it took them from start to actually shooting was like a six year period of time.

Andy:

Oh, that's amazing. I did not, and

Sean:

so, It's that element. And, and I've talked about this before of like really believing in your idea. And they had a, they had a whole other idea for what they wanted to do, which was they wanted to be, uh, women who had escaped from a cult and were hiding from the cult as junior high school students. Right. So they would've been playing adult women pretending to be junior high school students. Right. So that is the part of it that stuck when they sort of started to put this idea together and strip away what wasn't working from their other idea.

Andy:

Right. And I believe it's Sam's Wiman, who is sort of their writer director, collaborator had, was the one who said, you know what, let's do this again and just strip out the pretense of the cult. And you guys are just in high school. Mm-hmm. Um, right. Which is, again, that's a, that's an additional thing of having. A third pair of eyes that sometimes you're so much in it, uh, particularly if you have a shared sensibility, it's like you and the other person that you need a third pair of eyes to go. I think we should just strip that out. And then to your, to the thing you're saying about the, the length of time. Mm-hmm. It took from the beginning of the end. That's another thing of like, that journey allows you to incubate that idea to such a degree. Mm-hmm. That often in a development process you don't have that opportunity. Um, or you don't have the opportunity to do it in a way where it stays true to what you feel is, are the right artistic choices. so it really, that's why you enter this world and it's like, You're, you're thrown right into the pool. And it's like this, all this is up unsettling and touching and weird, but they know what they're doing.

Sean:

Which brings us back to the cinematic touches in the opening sequence at the school, which they insist it, it's echoed later in a funnier way. But there's the moment where they step out of the car together and they have to do it at the same time. Yeah. And I say it's echoed in a funnier way later because she says we have to be together when we get our first fingers. Oh, right. Which is just a hilarious, so amazing. but so they go through, they, they, you know, they're walking up to school the first day of school and they, they have all sorts of, there's the music that comes in, which I think is, is, uh, maybe lit. Lit or something. That's right. Yeah.

Andy:

My own worst enemy.

Sean:

and then they see the girl whose breasts they've been talking about, and her breasts are gigantic. Right.

Andy:

Which I think is their way of queuing off because you almost feel a, uh, a sensation of discomfort and concern when they start talking about the 13 year old's breast. You're like, uhoh, what is this show gonna be doing? Right. And then they make it these comically,

Sean:

uh, that are clearly not the little girl behind the character.

Andy:

So it's like, oh, that's how we're gonna deal with these kinds of, their point

Sean:

of moments. It's their view, not what's really going on. Right.

Andy:

And by the same token later on, when it's Dustin, that they're looking at one of the boys that, uh, Maya's fixated on. And he's just, none of them, none of the kids. Some of the, you know, they, some of the kids are like, oh, you could see them as the popular kid. Most of them are like, just, they're just lumps. Yeah. They're just these either scrawny or awkward or it's just like, yeah. That's what a, a 13 year old would think. Like, that's the hottest person in school. Yeah. Yeah. but one of the ways that they communicate it is Dustin sort of just turns around and they talk about his earring and how much they, they like it, and then the earring has a little blinging, little glimmer, and it's like, yeah, that's what they would, that's what they would see. Yeah.

Sean:

so they go in and we see a little bit of them in the school, in class, I think that's where we have the, the teacher playing the guitar, which is, uh, Reminiscent of Dustin Hoffman on The Simpsons.

Andy:

That's right. You're saying they stole

Sean:

it. I'm saying it's been

Andy:

done. Okay. Uh, and that's all we have to say. We, we talk until Sean hits a point where he is like, you've blown it. You're out of the running for best pilot. I will

Sean:

also say that guy was no Dustin Hoffman. Um,

Andy:

that's not a fair comparison for anyone. Nobody's, nobody's Dustin Hoffman. You sir, are no Dustin Hoffman. Yeah.

Sean:

Uh, and by the end of that sequence, dated reference, we find out, yes, nothing better than 1996 politics.

Andy:

I would say somebody, somebody hit the dated reference. Dated reference, uh, jingle. But that will be constant in this podcast. We'll never stop.

Sean:

Um, but they come outta class and there's all kinds of signs hanging on the lockers, right about how Brant loves Maya. And Dustin loves Maya.

Andy:

Now, Becca's the one. Who comes in and explains it to them. Mm-hmm. And that goes back to the moment that Sean was describing before where they're like, they don't question it for a second there maybe a little bit, but then they're like, this is it. This is what weve been waiting for. Right. So my question to you about Becca mm-hmm. Because I think it's Becca that both tells them this and then drops the reality on them later. Does Becca know? Absolutely, yes. This absolutely flat out cool thing, but

Sean:

that's what makes the second moment so heartbreaking, right? Is that Becca is reveling in telling Maya she's been taken right. And she's about to be named. UUs or Yuji, whichever Becca chooses to pronounce it as. But she's gonna be the yus of the school. Right. And Becca loves being able to tell her that. Right. But she's doing it in such a way that it forces Maya as her heart is breaking Right. To thank Becca and tell her that she appreciates it and that it's funny that she's gonna be called you just

Andy:

what? A performance also by my hair sky, that she's like, oh God, that she's has to be polite. The tears are welling up in her, her eyes. It's, she's just, that's

Sean:

really cool. That's really funny.

Andy:

Oh man. It's amazing. What a great choice also for her to have to sort of polite her way out of it. I

Sean:

turned to the person I was watching it with and I was like, there are so many things in this show that are so hilarious to me. Yeah. But there's always at least one moment in every episode where my heart just absolutely snaps in half, you know?

Andy:

And I turn to the person I was Oh. Well, anyway, what are we talking about? What are we talking about? What are we talking about? Yeah.

Sean:

we're still in the part where she's getting sucked in. Yes. And that's what makes it so great is she 100% believes that these boys are in love with her and that all she has to do is choose one and that will be her boyfriend. Hence forward till the end

Andy:

of days. As the, I always try to avoid spoilers, I will probably watch this, this series at some point. But can you tell me mm-hmm. Is it explained? It's funny that this is the thing I'm asking about because often my questions in a show are like, and do we find out where his powers are, are from? Do we find out his origin story? But here's my question. His father was Kelle. Oh, is that it? Yeah. So his father was Superman. That's who you're referring to. You know, I guess you were thinking of Gire, Joel? Yes. Oh boy. Sean, this is, there's really, I

Sean:

got was actually think your face in this one. I was, I was actually thinking of Marlon Brando.

Andy:

That would be jll, not Russell Crow. what was I talking about? Oh yeah. Do we find out why they have this hubris? Is there any, any kind of like frame of how their parents treat them or whatever that's sort of like, oh, that's why I don't think so. I think

Sean:

that's just who they are. Right? It's just who they are. Yeah. Yeah. That's just how they are. I, I, I think it's a friendship, really. It's like they love each other so much that they enable each other right. To feel good about their place in the world. Right.

Andy:

It's like what I said is that just both their fatal flaw and their strength come from the same thing, which is

Sean:

their, it's, it's like very sweet that they care that much about each other, but it also causes them to be blind to the reality sometimes. That's so

Andy:

amazing. So

Sean:

now we know that Maya is, you know, her hubris has, has the wheel. The wheel of hubris is about to come crashing down.

Andy:

Oh, before we get past that moment? Yeah. Yeah. Is that the moment? Yes. It's because it's when Becca comes up to them and they're, she, they're talking about it and Maya's like, I know you guys, I'm losing my mind right now. Kind of almost being like fake humble. When she went, when she went to,

Sean:

uh, the Salon Supreme Right. For her haircut

Andy:

when she lies about where she got her haircut. Yeah. And she turns back and makes that face at, at, at Anna, which is like beautiful. Um, and one of the things that I, love about this stylistically is they hit this kind of quick, kind of almost boy bandish music st that cuts off hard in the middle of it and they go to black. So it's almost an awkward kind of like music cut that like it also implies danger in something ominous, but it's also just a weird cut.

Sean:

Here comes Bruce the shark. Yeah. So then we come back and we're in, well, I guess it starts in the locker room right. With the classic gym teacher character who's like, you think you're better than me, or whatever. Right. You know? which is exactly like every seventh grade gym teacher. Right. Uh, Mr. Ren was the guy was yours. Yeah. And he, uh, did not like me. What was his big complaint about? Well, he knew my father and he knew I was better than what I was, how I was behaving.

Andy:

Oh yeah. He gave credit to your father? Sort of a reverse back to the future.

Sean:

And then I did terribly in the free throw shooting test, and he was gonna fail me for seventh grade. Was your

Andy:

father a great athlete?

Sean:

No. No, no. But he was the principal of a high school that Mr. Ren had worked at. Oh, sure, sure. No, no, no. It was about behavior. It wasn't about, uh, athletic performance. Gotcha. But then they're in the, you know, playing kickball outside and there's that incredible, first, there's the really funny moments of them just looking at these boys and projecting so much onto them. And again, a very effective use of sort of cheesy soundtrack music. Yeah. You know, uh, where Maya's just looking at the back of this kid's neck and listening to, I don't know what, 98 degrees or who knows who it is,

Andy:

the back of the neck is another moment of such specificity mm-hmm. Of that, that's what a teenage girl might look at. That that's a very specific fetishization. That's, it's very unique to Maya. Mm-hmm. Um, it's just great. And it's, it's weird. It makes you uncomfortable, but it's also like, yeah, I can see that she would be into it. Right.

Sean:

uh, of course, Anna kicks the ball right into Alex's nose. Right. And, uh, just the crush, like the feeling of doing something like that. And that's one of those moments where I relate to that so hard. Right. Because when I was in sixth grade, there was a girl I was in love with her Uhhuh. I never told her. Okay. She knew She'll know now. She did know then. Oh, she did know then. I thought it would be funny at one point. This is gonna be, this is a horrific story by the way. Just, no, I think this is trigger warning.

Andy:

Okay.

Sean:

Uh, she dropped her. You're the Jaws music. She dropped her pencil on the ground. Okay. And I thought it would be funny to kick it outta the way with my foot to nudge it aside as she was reaching for it. Sure. I fucked it up and I kicked it. Oh no. Right into her hand. Oh no. It just went right into the webbing between her thumb and her pointer finger. And she went, ow, you fucker. Oh. And that was, that was my equivalent moment with Anna, where I was like, I can't believe I just, I've given her lead poisoning. What's that? I might've given her lead poisoning, but I literally did the exact same thing. I went down to the nurse's office with her, like it was the same Wow. Fucking thing. And she told me in that moment, yeah. She was like, Dustin is a bitch.

Andy:

That's what she said. It's weird. The same thing. Yeah. Yeah. what, what's really the greatest shame of that story is you had an ironclad comedy, bit like you were gonna kick the pencil. Never doesn't

Sean:

work. Never

Andy:

does not work. It's just happenstance

Sean:

that it didn't say, Mr. Green, I see you're reaching for that pencil. If

Andy:

you had had a second take that would, well, Mr. Brown look dated comedy.

Sean:

We don't reference, we don't know what's gonna work and what's not gonna

Andy:

work. Further and further back, we're going to the Daud film. Now I

Sean:

say, Mr.

Andy:

Barrymore, yes.

Sean:

So anyway, Anna has nailed this kid in the face with a kickball. She goes to the office with him, the nurse's office, and he tells her that Dustin is a bitch.

Andy:

Another thing that I like that's sort of a left turn because you could argue that maybe that her kicking the him in the face with a kickball is, is slightly more in the trophy direction. Mm-hmm. Is. Then the conversation between them is not this giant disaster. Like she's being weird and putting a tremendous amount of pressure on him, but he's, he can't even process it. So it's not even like it ruins their relationship. Right. He's just like an a 13 year old boy. He's just like, I don't, I don't know. Oh, you're talking about just Dustin. That's the only thing I understand in this conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

Sean:

Uh, so Anna has to run back and tell, Maya the choice is easy between Brant and Dustin because Dustin's a bitch. Right.

Andy:

And the thing that drives that primarily is

Sean:

that she wants to be in the same room when they get fingered so

Andy:

that Alex and brand or whoever the other person's with Yeah. Has to have to be with, you know, people that like each other. Right. Right. Because obviously you wouldn't finger someone in her room with, with

Sean:

somebody you don't like. No. Yeah. Um, I never, I never, uh, got fingered in seventh grade.

Andy:

Hey, Sean. Yeah, I see you. Thank you. No problem.

Sean:

Um, so Maya and Maya and Anna conspire to send a note to Brant that Maya has made her choice. I guess there's two real pen 15 moments to me. Yeah. In the show, Do you know the whole thing with Pen 15?

Andy:

I do, but

Sean:

please explain. So I did not know this and I was like, what's the big deal about Pen 15? Like why does, why do we care that somebody isn't writing the word penis that they're writing? Pen

Andy:

15 For the diehard spoiler people, this is a very minor spoiler. Uh, as someone who worries about spoilers, I don't feel like it's that big an issue. But skip ahead if it, if you're, if you're concerned,

Sean:

it turns out that what you do is you ask someone if they want to be in the Pen 15 club, and if they say yes, you say, we just have to write pen 15 on your, I've heard hand, I've also heard forehead. We write pen 15 on your forehead, and that way it looks like it says penis on your forehead. Right. And. To me the biggest pen, 15 moments on the show in this episode, cuz they never referenced that at

Andy:

all. Right. Well that's again, another astonishing thing about this pilot is they don't explain the title, which is a very specific title to the meaning of the show.

Sean:

And I literally had seen the pilot like three or four times before I ever, ever even understood what that was. but first of all, it's the thing of like telling Maya these guys want to go out with her and then it turns out that they want to name her Yugi instead. Yeah. and then the other thing is, in this moment when Maya has written a note to Brant and. And, uh, changes the whole note so that it's much more in little abbreviations Right. And arrows and whatever.

Andy:

It's like, what's also brilliant about that is that will play for the modern audience mm-hmm. For the younger, modern audience that only knows texting. Cause it's very much like constructing a text to, to, you know, to communicate the right emoji level of, of breeziness. Right. Except it's analog.

Sean:

Right. so she sends the note and that's when we have the scene in the hallway where Maya finds out that, in fact, first Brant says, Dustin loves you. He says, yes. Then Dustin says, brat says yes. And then Becca does Maya the kindness of explaining to her. That actually they've been fucking with her so hard the whole time. And they're gonna name her the ugliest girl

Andy:

in school. And I would give credit to casting, which it's just an amazing job. And one has to say the, the casting, uh, by Melissa Dia. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.

Sean:

Um, Melissa, if you're listening and that's not how you say it, apologies, uh,

Andy:

call into the, uh, the tip line.

Sean:

Uh, we usually use it 1 805 5 5. Co-pilots

Andy:

doesn't, doesn't work. Too many letters, but, uh, maybe, we'll, maybe we'll snag that. uh, anyway, just genius. Just so adept and amazing, especially with kid actors where it's not like you're going to a known quantity is most, most of the time, even though I assume that they have had some jobs before this. But, um, it's like you're finding a person that's like new to the game that somehow nails it across the boards. All the performances are amazing and I also have to point to. Uh, Survivorman and, the, the two leads who were, were very operative as the showrunners of the show, Gabe Leman was the showrunner, sort of supervising them, but I think they also were sort of co-ho runners. So, but whoever was handling the performances on set, and I know Maya and Anna did a lot of it, just amazing work, getting these moments in these performances and Becca being a perfect example mm-hmm. To have the, the nuances of enjoying it while also the truth communicating this information. Yeah. Yeah.

Sean:

There's a New Yorker article that I was reading today about the whole thing. Yeah, I read that article too, in which they said that little girl was such a nice kid and they always felt a little guilty about, you know, making her be such a jerk to them on the show. And she was like apologizing to them and, you know, it was like, it must be just a weird dynamic. I mean, first of all, working with kid actors is always a weird dynamic, but just a weird dynamic to make some little kid play like an evil bitchy kid when in fact they're not like that at all in real life. You know,

Andy:

she's doing a great job. She's gonna get typecast in it for the rest of her days,

Sean:

just how Hollywood works. so yeah, so we're at, we're out on that. And, and, and Maya doesn't know what to do, so she does what you do in a situation like that, which is they go to see Shuji and find out how to, how to fight

Andy:

back. And this is another example of a great mislead because when he hears that she's been called Ugis, he, he sort of stands up and his blood runs cold, and you're like, oh, he's, oh, wow. We're in one of these things. Um, and then it's just he's going to, he's gonna tell her how to, in their words, bitch

Sean:

out. Well, he says, he goes, I, I'm not gonna beat up a seventh grader. Which by the way, was not my experience in seventh grade. Right. There were plenty of eighth graders that were perfectly happy to do that. Do you think that

Andy:

that's, they're making a distinction of like, that suji is more honorable or that's just the role of school? I think school,

Sean:

yeah. I think it's more, it's more just like, that's how that school is. Right. And it's the world they're setting up, you know? Gotcha. Um, but just to go back a little bit, my favorite part of that whole scene is, uh, I forget which of'em says it, but she's like, Do you know where the eighth graders sit and they start walking towards the eighth graders and you see this one girl dancing, like she's at a rave. Like it just sets such a funny tone for like, oh, now we're in the eighth grade part of the world,

Andy:

you know? Yeah. During the cave Yeah. Hero's journey, right?

Sean:

Uh, but yeah, so Suji says, here's a couple things you can say. Right? And it's very funny that she, she still can't get over how adorable this kid is. He's like, what is he like? And she starts describing his beautiful silken chestnut hair, bad

Andy:

features. And this is another thing that's sort of so interesting and unique about these two as characters that also feels true, that they're very boy crazy. And that's sort of a driving aspect of it because they connect their boy craziness and their interest in boys to their path to adulthood and becoming young women. and so they're singularly focused on it, but there's also doesn't seem to be, A loyalty to their crushes. Mm-hmm. Maya's, you know, uh, is sort of like open to either Dustin or Brant, like whoever's gonna fill the slot. And, and Anna likes Suji. Shoji, but also Alex. Alex. Exactly. So it's, it's very, I don't know. It's very, I really love that aspect

Sean:

of it, which is, like you said, very true to life. Right? Like no one cares at that age. It's just like, who, who do I like today? Right. Um, and it's devastating if they don't like me back, but tomorrow they'll be somebody else. Right. which is, which is nice.

Andy:

Which also gives you the sort of the, the, the dual story you're telling of this is the most important thing that ever happened. Uh, and it'll be traumatic the rest of my life. And it's completely inconsequential.

Sean:

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. so then, so then we have Maya's all set up to confront them after school. She tells the kids in a class, like, I'm gonna go after him after school, we'll see what happens. And, The showdown occurs.

Andy:

Yes. Which interestingly, having watched, um, freaks and Geeks recently, similar showdown, and it's always sort of like, oh, we're doing this trope. What is our spin on it? And the spin is great a, in that it's, a girl, uh, 13 year old girl facing a 13 year old boy. Um, and then sort of that's unusual that it's a bitch out sort of contest. And then also the, obviously the specifics of how it plays out in that, you know, Maya's clearly freaking out. She can't get her words together. She's sort of just riding on energy. Anna's sort of pushing her into it. The

Sean:

weird physicality the two of them have is, is very entertaining. Like, almost like corner men in a boxing match. Yes. Circling back and forth and scr like Anna's behind Maya and yelling at her to go do it, get it, you know, whatever.

Andy:

And, but you can imagine them also being distinct from the kids around them, even if they actually were 13 year olds. And that, that's why these, these two are different is that they're sort of weirdos and jacked up in energy and

Sean:

you know, whereas the kid is just complete like a statue, like doesn't know what's going on, even though he provoked it, does not understand what's happening. Right. Uh, and it's set up I think, pretty well by the whole, um, previous scene that we didn't talk about, which was my Maya got asked to. Tell people what she had done over the summer, right? And she goes into a whole Ace Ventura riff, which

Andy:

is a bold choice. To include in the pilot because it is off story. Other than it's really fantastic misdirection in that it's sort of like you're like, oh, maybe they, maybe she is gonna become popular. Maybe this is gonna play in. Right. All

Sean:

doesn't play in kids. All the kids are, all the kids are laughing at what she's doing. They're all on board with how funny her impression is. Right. And you get a sense of her as a performer. Although then they come back and she's kind of looking, she's like triumphantly going back to her desk after doing this great performance. Yeah. And looking at Brant. And he has just no reaction, just complete, even though he was laughing while she was up there. Right. It's like it was a different person and now she's back to being herself. But I'm only bringing that up because I feel like that sets up her weird, performative energy in the moment of the fight because she's clearly a performer

Andy:

of some kind. A hundred percent. And then there's the turn, uh, which is also, this is, this is again, it's like, okay, this is their, Specific of how to turn this trope on its head. And the thing that's most impressive is the thing that Brant and Dustin have done is so off the charts, cruel and unforgivable. Mm-hmm. Um, that it's like, well, there's no way you're gonna turn this back on its head. And, and have Maya. See, they're not gonna, they're not gonna win. Have this blow up in Maya's face. Right. If she, she'll, the only thing that can happen is that the bully wins and they do, they make her the worst bully. Yeah. By invoking that, that, uh, Brant's, uh, father has recently passed away because

Sean:

of stuff Brant did. Right. and this is a thing I think a lot of people don't get sometimes, is you have to drop this stuff in earlier. Like you can't just come outta nowhere because it feels to sit calm me. Of like, oh wait. But she does, they do say, I forget who says it, but somebody says something about how he did something when his dad was sick or something like that earlier on. So we know that the dad was sick. We don't know until this moment that the dad died, but it totally fits together with everything we already know. It's not just outta nowhere.

Andy:

Um, and then the crowd immediately turns on Maya. And the things, the things that are the most amazing is that they're not even shouting at Maya. They're just quietly objected. They can't believe it. Yeah. Hey, that's not, what are you doing? That's not, and as they, as they walk away, the quiet audio that I love is Dustin, the other monster in this situation go, you know, just like going, Hey, it's okay, man. Comforting, just comforting brand. Yeah. Um, it's just fantastic. So she,

Sean:

manages to lose this incredibly winnable confrontation. And then we get back to where we were at the beginning of the pilot, which is that they're in their, they're in their rooms or whatever, and she gets the note from, from Suji about how he's proud of her. And with the map. To where the list is so she can take her name off the list of

Andy:

Ugis. Now, I'm curious what your reaction was to this, and I don't know, you've watched it several times, so, so maybe you don't remember. Mm-hmm. But the, like, my reaction to this, and I don't necessarily need a win, like you could have ended the show on them walking away from the fight. but it feels like, it's like, there's obviously the kind of joke that's like, oh my God, it's this thing. And like, whoa, she knows what it is. What is it? They go into the, into the bathroom and she scratches her, tries to scratch her name off. She doesn't really effectively scratch her name off because it's carved into the wall. it doesn't really change anything in terms of what's happened. So Is it supposed to show the futility of scratching it off or going to this gesture? Mm-hmm. Like what is the purpose of that scene?

Sean:

I think that is, no, I think it is supposed to show that she is able to get a win out of it. It is supposed to feel like a win. Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. I think it's not a bleak existential comment on how no matter what we do, we're gonna fail. I think it's more like I. This is where your name would've gone and you are defacing that. So yeah, I get what you're saying that it doesn't really get rid of the marks on the wall, but nobody's gonna go in there next year and go, I know who you just was last year. You know,

Andy:

aren't they? They can read the name.

Sean:

guess I see it as they cut away to the outside of the bathroom. Yes. She's still scratching at the wall. She kept scratching at the wall after that for a few more seconds. I see. So that it was illegible. So if you really wanted to see her name, you'd have to go in with some sort of acid etching solution like a CSI person. Right. And go what was underneath this scratch here. And then you'd be like, oh, last year's Ugis was my issue.

Andy:

Peters.

Sean:

I think it, it is ultimately a victory for them. That they got what they wanted, which is, she's not the s you know, she was able to cross it

Andy:

out. We'll never know unless we speak to the creators. I

Sean:

know. Um, I'm quite certain. Uh, so there it is, pen 15. Check it out, see what you think. Oh, hopefully you already watched it, cuz otherwise you don't have to. Since we already went through the whole thing.

Kevin:

I have a question for you too. Do you think there was a B story in the episode? Oh, good question.

Sean:

No.

Andy:

mean, I guess the, A story and the B story are both of their stories. So like you could argue the,

Sean:

I would argue that it's just Maya's story,

Andy:

but Alex is another thing for Anna and

Sean:

but plays into the B story like his really,

Andy:

but that's following a different, is it romance?

Sean:

I mean, certainly it's following a different romance that doesn't make it a different story necessarily.

Andy:

I was actually more invested in the. In the Anna Alex story, because that one seems like it could have legs. Whereas you sort of feel from the jump with the Maya story, it's like, oh, this is gonna turn out badly because this is clearly something, right? Oh, the Alex story does have legs, but it's not Hey, spoiler. In this episode. that's what I'm saying. I feel like that's why it's a separate story. I win. But we're talking

Sean:

about a single episode. We're not talking about the series. We're talking about the pilot. There's an a story in this pilot. There is not a b story. Yeah.

Andy:

But we're talking about a serialized series wherein plots are ongoing. Oh,

Sean:

are we talking about a serialized series? I believe we are. Oh,

Andy:

okay.

Sean:

but where does the story go? So what are, what are the beats of that story?

Andy:

The beats of that story are, she sees him, is he the one who's, was it Brant or

Sean:

already? It's not a good story as far as I'm concerned,

Andy:

Um, the, the plot with Alex doesn't have closure because it's a serialized series. but it begins the journey. so you have to judge each episode by, well, what stories, what strains of plot. Are you following? I

Sean:

disagree 100%. Not even.

Andy:

Not even 90%.

Sean:

Not 90%. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. We'll see, the only reason the Anna and Alex stuff works in this episode is because it plays into Maya's

Andy:

story. I'm not saying thematically, they're not tied. I'm saying I think you could consider it a B

Sean:

plot. I think you're coming at it from a lot of different directions. And I think for a B story to work, it needs to have a beginning, middle, and end. And that doesn't have that in this episode.

Andy:

I don't think it has to have a beginning, middle, and end. And if you did, you could argue that the end is when he sees, uh, the two of them. Be in their minds, cruel to, uh, Brant. And so she's here. She sort of made some ground with, uh, with Alex, and then she loses it at the end.

Sean:

You're saying the fact that he happens to be, at the moment that Maya fights the other kid, he comments completion of his story?

Andy:

He comments, I don't remember exactly what he says, but he comments of just like, basically it's not, it's not cool what's happening here. And they're clearly in league with each other, Maya and Anna.

Sean:

Right. But if the story is about him and Anna's relationship, that doesn't really have anything to do with his relationship with Anna.

Andy:

yeah, it does. He's, it, it puts her behind the, with it feel

Sean:

like being very general in your definition of story

Andy:

here. I see. I don't think that, to me it's like, because you depart from the Maya story mm-hmm. And you follow the Anna story. And the sizes of the story determine whether it's the A story or the B story. So you're departing from the Maya story, and then you're going into the doctor's office with Anna and Alex, which is the B story.

Sean:

You're going into the doctor's office, which is by the way, a nurse's office. well,

Andy:

I'm trying to give that nurse credit. We don't know how far she went in medical school. She could have been a physician's

Sean:

assistant. Yes. I don't even know if it's a woman. but the reason you go there is to get information for Maya not to do anything that has anything to do with Anna's story. Well, you could

Andy:

argue that's why it's well-written serialization, because they don't, they don't depart from it entirely. But I do feel like the emotional beat you're following there is how is it going for Anna with Alex?

Sean:

I don't think that matters in that moment. Because all she cares about is getting back to Maya and telling her that Dustin's

Andy:

a bitch. I mean, I never would've thought that this was the, this was the moment that, that this podcast ended cuz Sean and I came to blows so harshly over which, well, it's teenage revealed.

Sean:

It's wild because I know we both have done the same thing for a long time in terms of writing for television. But for you to be so wrong about something like this blows my mind

Andy:

It's like, it's like watching a baby try to drive and just, you know, just having problems and not being able to reach the wheel. And that's what watching you try to make this point is what that feels like.

Sean:

It's just interesting that. You would hold on so hard to an argument that's so clearly incorrect.

Andy:

This is a sad way for this podcast to end on one of us being terribly wrong and I'm pretty sure if you go to the polls, you'll find out which one on our website,

Sean:

which is Yeah, please vote at 1 805 55 co-pilots.

Kevin:

The reason I brought that up is I, when I was watching the show, I am drawn as a viewer into the Anna Alex relationship, but In Sean's framework. This was not a B story cause I was like, there's no climax, there's no act break on it. There's no complication or backfiring. Smart guy. But also he's just reiterating what you said. But also to your point, to your point, like they don't play it as like, I think you're being uncharitable to Andy when you say at the end he just happens to be there. Like they zoom in on his reaction to Anna in particular. And I think that's like one of the last things that the episode is him being disappointed with her. he is a smart guy, Sean, you're right.

Sean:

I think laying in story for later episodes is very different from having a story in this episode.

Andy:

In a serialized show, it has to be laying in. Well, I guess the question is, doesn't matter, like, does it matter whether you call it B story, an story, because I've never been in a writing room. I dunno All of these terms are really their, their main purpose is for. speaking, as the writers, our way of thinking about the story and discussing the story and figuring out if something's not working, why it's not working. So all these structural ways of sort of slotting it in your head, that's the purpose of it. That being said, this is a very intuitive pilot, even though it's structured very well, again, because of how it's probably created and all the, the iterations they went through. so if it's working, then you, I don't think you necessarily have to break it down into this way or that way. On the other I don't know. It's very interesting to look at particularly modern serialized shows and figure out the kind of things we're talking about. Like whether they're going to classic structure, whether they're not, and how confident they are to depart and that from that and how well it works when they do. Because I definitely, I agree with the spirit of what Sean's saying, which is if you depart too far from it, you certainly are increasing the odds of having it not be a satisfying conclusion or finish, or development of your story.

Sean:

I didn't even feel like I was looking for a satisfying conclusion to that story.

Andy:

And I'm not saying it needed it in order to be a BPL saying, and I'm I'm saying it does.

Sean:

Right. That's where we disagree. So would you say JI'S story is a, is a story in this as well?

Andy:

no, because Maya is the central character in that story, even the Suji parts. So that is part of Maya's journey. Whereas Maya is not the central character in Anna's story with Alex,

Sean:

but she kind of is, especially in the big moment where they have their conversation in the nurse's office.

Andy:

She is the thing they're talking about, but she's not the emotional center of that story.

Sean:

I'm not gonna move you off your point, and you're not gonna move me off mine. I knew that

Andy:

about 15 minutes ago. Mm-hmm. Uh, one last new segment I'm gonna throw out you and see how it works, is, um, And I have not watched any more of the show. Who would you pick as the first character to die and why? Now, obviously, I don't know what happens in this series, but to me the darkest, comedic thing to happen would be Brant remains, uh, a tormentor of Maya or Anna. They turn on him again in some public way, and then he dies in some way. So it's escalating what they've already done. In mocking him about his father's death.

Sean:

I feel like I can't participate in this one because you know what happens? I've already watched the show. Yeah.

Andy:

Oh, I don't, I don't want it spoiled. So don't say. Right. So I won't say anything, but I will say this, uh, this has kind of made me think cuz of what, what I actually thought you were gonna say and are. Our, uh, meandering argument is, should we have some kind of a, an outside electronic, decision point of like, if Sean and I are having an intractable argument, then the computer just decides which one of us is right in a randomized fashion. We go, well, I guess I was wrong. Sean was Right.

Sean:

Just a spinner. Like the one you have for the other

Andy:

thing. Yeah. Yeah. It could be a spinner, you could have spinners for different things. I,

Sean:

I, I just like the sound of the spinner, you know? Yeah,

Andy:

that's what I'm thinking. Yeah. I love, I can do that. Oh, you're gonna do it right now? Ha ha.

Sean:

Well, I guess I lose, according to Kevin's laptop, the ultimate arbiter of all things.

Andy:

If only we could decide all geopolitical issues with Kevin's laptop, shall we play a game? I think it was a folks B plot.

Sean:

Professor Falcons. This has been co-pilots.

Andy:

Thank you for listening to everyone. and you know what, do you like our show or, you know, the other options that you could love our show either way. Give us five stars, leave us a comment. Uh, we're gonna be selecting some of those. You know, honestly, good, bad, whatever, you're still gonna get your pilot's wings. Which is that's a fake thing. That's not a real thing,

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

Wait, so it doesn't exist.

Andy:

is no, there are no pilots wings.

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

Okay, because I'm getting a lot of questions about that and I don't know how to answer.

Andy:

I really tried to be clear.

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

Hmm.

Andy:

this is just a metaphorical set of wings that you

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

Okay.

Andy:

just by leaving a five star view. You can say whatever you want. Just give us five stars. Here's an example.

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

Yes. This review is from someone named a rabid fan, and the review is titled jolly good show. And it is a five star review, which says, I used to watch a sewage pipe drip onto these guys while they performed improv comedy in a supermarket basement. I hadn't thought about those old times for years, but now that this podcast has debuted, it really has me wondering about what became of that old pipe. I hope it was fixed or replaced.

Andy:

Obviously referring to the UCB theater, which and I performed in for many years.

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

Did you ever, there was in fact a pipe that sort of hung over the stage that sometimes would have things coming out of it, or there would be a bag on the end of it. Did you ever get, did you ever get any

Andy:

on, yeah. For sure.

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

I, uh, I think I successfully avoided getting dripped on, but I did, I did have to

Andy:

most of the shows staring in fear at the ceiling.

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

Or I stayed all the way on the other, you know, I very much stayed to the perimeter of the stage. yeah, I always started every scene by going, I'm outside! I'm on the ledge!

Andy:

Hello, I'm at the bottom of the mountain! Down

Sean:

here!

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

I'm in the audience watching your show. Jolly good show.

Andy:

I'm in an air balloon, off to the side!

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

It's a good thing your motorcycle has a huge sidecar.

Zoom Combined Audio:

So,

Andy:

no, Sean didn't get, uh, I wonder what became of that pipe, too! You know what? Maybe, I wonder if that, that pipe got a, deal on CISO at some point, who knows?

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

I mean, this person says they're a rabid fan. they're clearly British, right? Because it says Jolly Good Show. That, that would put them in like 19th century Victorian England. I, I just don't know that that was the direction I want our reviews to go in. Is like, to the piping in an old theater that we performed at.

Andy:

well see the brilliance is shown as long as they give us five stars Then we're not allowed to To

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

We, we, we, we now have to send them wings, right? Like

Andy:

we're not sending them but you have your wings rabid fan

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

uh,

Andy:

getting a rabid fan and not rabid fan. 1967

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

This is the first time anybody's ever used the name Rabid Fan.

Sean:

Yeah, apparently. So.

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

Okay. So we are going to keep releasing episodes of the show on the first and third Sundays of the month. Just like this one today, which is on the one of those. And, uh, if you're looking for where to watch these pilots that we're doing, cause some of them are pretty obscure. Some of them are in weird places. Just check the show notes and you can see where to watch. That's also where you will find links to our Patreon. We now have a Patreon, and our social media. So, go to atcopilots. tv in any of those places if you want to support us. And, uh, we're going to have all sorts of great bonus content. In fact, I'm not thrilled with the decision that Kevin's laptop made. so I am thinking that perhaps we could do a little poll amongst our listeners as to whether. Anna's story counts as a B story or whether, Andy is wrong.

Andy:

So you're demanding a recount.

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

Well, I, I feel like it was rigged. I feel like I've actually won the election.

Andy:

And That's it, Hey, everybody. You're All in the wrong seat. You're supposed to be in 23B.

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

All of them?

Andy:

Yes, all of them? They're all seated in the wrong seat. Is the metaphor not work?

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

No, I just think if you say they're all supposed to be in 23B, that's going to be one crowded seat.

Sean:

Yeah, that's right.

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

please feel free to get up and move about the cabinet.

Andy:

about the What? Didn't you say

Sean:

cabinet?

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

isn't that what they say on a plane?

Andy:

The cabin. Was this, is this an intentional pun?

Copilots.Pen15.outtro:

I don't know.