4 - THE SIMPSONS with Mike Mitchell (a Christmas Pilot)

Sean, Andy, and guest Mike Mitchell (Dough Boys, Tomorrow Wars, Birthday Boys) break down the pilot "Simpsons Roasting on an Open Fire." 

Where to watch (Simpsons S1E1 and earlier pieces):

• Simpsons Short "Good Night" (1987). This is widely available on Youtube, here is one copy (Link)
• Unaired Pilot "Some Enchanted Evening" (1989). Also mainly on YouTube, here is a copy with better quality image than most (Link)
• Simpsons Premier, "Simpsons Roasting on an Open Fire" (1989). This is available on Disney+, Hulu (just the pilot from S1), or for purchase on Youtube (link). It's also available in Youtube, usually broken into pieces.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening Chat
• 2:35 Intro

Transcript

Andy: 0:00

We could have called it the pilot's lounge. Which is, is unlike our current title. Uh, a title has not been used nine times. That was the other thing we've discovered, uh, Mike is that we pointed a bunch of people to this podcast and they were like, there are like five other podcasts called co pilots, two of which are about pilots and one which has a co host named Andy.

Mike: 0:23

That's, I mean, 1 billion food and 1 billion movie podcasts. There's a million of them. There's too many of them.

Andy: 0:31

Um, so it was, it was something that you were going to do exactly the same idea.

Mike: 0:35

so, yeah, so, on the doughboys double every so often we used to do pilot program and Nick and I would do like, we reviewed cheers and other bullshit

Sean: 0:44

What you said was good, right?

Mike: 0:46

which it is good. Just spoiler alert for when you guys get to cheers.

Sean: 0:50

cheers on the list.

Mike: 0:52

And then, um, Jack and I were like, let's spin that off into its own podcast. cause Jack wanted to do a podcast. He's like, let's do one. I was like, we do this thing and we can make it like a full podcast. And then we made art for it. we're like going to

Andy: 1:04

as far as the art. I like that you led with the art. The art was the last thing we did.

Mike: 1:09

the art was, everything was done. It's crazy. I want to see if I could find it, but I also don't even know if I should bring it up. I just want to tell you, cause it's funny.

Andy: 1:17

That's amazing.

Mike: 1:17

but Jack was like, at the last minute was like, I don't want to do, podcasts

Andy: 1:22

The decision that all of us should have made.

Sean: 1:26

that does make me, that does make me think we've been going about this the wrong way. Like had we started with the art, we would've gotten farther, I think.

Andy: 1:34

It would have answered all of our debates and questions like, look, it's supposed to look like the poster.

Mike: 1:40

We drew Jack and I as pilots. Are you guys doing

Andy: 1:43

we did. Have you seen the art for us?

Mike: 1:45

No

Sean: 1:45

We drew you and Jack as pilots, and Andy and I are,

Andy: 1:50

And then Sean said, come on. It shouldn't be these guys.

Sean: 1:53

yeah.

Mike: 1:54

Yeah.

Andy: 1:55

Like that his only reason for not doing it was just the obvious one of like, oh, wait a minute I don't want to do a podcast

Mike: 2:02

That is truly what it was. And I, I told, I was like, I was like, by the way, I'm doing Andy Secunda's podcast tomorrow. I was like, it's, the pilot pro, I just want to tell him. And he was like, He's like, good. He's like, God bless you all for doing. I guess

Andy: 2:15

Uh, well, Mitch, thank you for, by the way, referring to it as Andy Secunda's podcast, because that's how I also see it. There

Sean: 2:26

on this show. You know, I am so not invested in any way in this. I'm like, sure, sure. Well, yeah, let's have, let's have Mike Mitchell on. Great.

2:40

Hey everybody, welcome to CoPilots. I am Sean Conroy and I'm Andy Secunda. On this podcast, we talk about TV pilots, the first episodes of television shows. Sometimes pilots become long running series. Others don't make it past that first episode. We're going to talk about all of them. The great pilots, the bad pilots, weird pilots, the forgotten pilots. We are TV writers, but it should be noted that we are the dumbest TV writers, you know, so all of these are just our dumb opinions. So dumb.

Sean: 3:11

Yeah. Uh, well, this is great because we have a guest for the very first time on the show, which is exciting with us today is Mike Mitchell, who is one of the members of the birthday boys, a fantastic sketch comedy group. He was also in. The TV series love. He had a, an amazing role in that he was in the tomorrow war. I loved the tomorrow war. I loved you in the tomorrow war and lots of other, lots of other things. so welcome Mike.

Mike: 3:42

it's an honor to be here. I've been a fan of both of you for so long, a big fan, You're two hilarious, guys, and I'm just, uh, I'm honored to be on the podcast. It's, it's, it's a true honor.

Andy: 3:52

I thought,

Sean: 3:53

of yours, not a fan of Andy's, but go ahead, Andy.

Andy: 3:55

appreciate that, Sean. I was, I was going to question your, that you were, you were honored to be on this podcast that is, uh, is nowheresville, but then you made it that you were a fan of ours and I still, my, my internal sensors went, it still seems fake,

Mike: 4:11

I saw Sean do be hilarious doing improv. when I first came to the UCB, Sean was already so, he was always so funny and you would come from New York at that point, Sean. Right. And Andy, I grew up on Conan and I know that the joke for the Darth Vader joke. Or which button do you use to call your mom to pick you up? Is that what it is? That's your joke.

Andy: 4:30

I mean, it was funnier in the original rendition, out of Triumph's

Mike: 4:33

Yeah, I, I, you're saying I botched it?

Andy: 4:36

No, I appreciate, I appreciate the shout out on it. Um,

Mike: 4:40

I mean, it's a great, it's a great joke. I've been, I've been a fan of both of yours forever. So I, I, and you know what? I've been a fan of the show that we're, talking about too forever. So

Andy: 4:48

Uh, The Simpsons, yes.

Sean: 4:50

I like how the guest manipulated us into, like, segwayed us into discussing the topic we're here to discuss.

Andy: 4:57

his superior chops in the podcasting form.

Sean: 5:00

Right.

Mike: 5:01

That's not, on my podcast. I'm not the, the suave one at all. I do not

Andy: 5:05

I think that

Mike: 5:06

things forward.

Andy: 5:07

that should give you some sense of where we are on the, on the chain of ability that you were the one who had to say, uh, hey, we're doing, uh, we're doing the Simpsons today, right?

Sean: 5:17

Yeah, I would have been here for another half an hour going, do you remember any specific jokes of mine that were really funny? Not just, not just Andy's?

Andy: 5:24

I put out to Mitch, cause I, uh, I realized the importance of, as the first guest, if in fact we don't put someone else first, but I'm assuming this is going to be the first one because it's a Christmas episode. You're kind of locked in that way. We're going to

Sean: 5:37

Welcome to our final episode folks.

Andy: 5:40

may also be our final episode, but, uh, I pointed out that he is the Bill Murray, to, to our Letterman to, uh, elevate both of us to an insane degree because Bill Murray was always Letterman's first guest as,

Mike: 5:54

always a tough, uh, but you're being very nice by saying, Oh yeah, you're like the, but it just means I'm the first guest. But you know, when

Andy: 6:00

You're going to be as funny as Bill Murray is what I'm trying to set up here.

Mike: 6:05

there are there are comedians that are like that are like, I'm kind of like a Farley type Like there are guys who like are that confident which is insane to me I never you know what I mean? I I get very uneasy being compared to anyone who's funny.

Sean: 6:18

Well, that's why I always, I go, I go Harold Lloyd because people don't really remember, you know, what,

Andy: 6:24

was a silent, he was a silent comedian. So all you had to do was speak. And then, you know, sort of like, Hey, so

Sean: 6:29

He could be right. We don't know. Yeah.

Andy: 6:31

bit more personable than the silent comedian.

Sean: 6:34

Mm hmm.

Mike: 6:35

Sean, I just want to say that's a joke of yours right there that I liked immediately. There we

Sean: 6:39

Well, I feel like there's a little bit of recency bias there, you know,

Mike: 6:42

that is, that's true. I saw you do improv, which is harder to, it's harder to, I mean, Andy's It was a kind of a coward's move to the written stuff and the improv is

Sean: 6:53

now we're talking, now we're getting somewhere.

Andy: 6:56

Yeah, no, you're right, you're right, I took the coward's way out, slaving away over jokes for hours and

Sean: 7:02

Mm hmm.

Andy: 7:04

having them winnowed down from a pile of them to just one.

Sean: 7:08

not up there on that improv tightrope taking a risk, you know.

Andy: 7:14

We can all agree we're in the podcasting avenue because that's the the laziest person's way out. if you're just having a conversation, you're still okay. You don't even have any expectation of being funny.

Mike: 7:25

It was truly my co host was like done being on stage It was kind of how our podcast came to be It was like, I don't want to be on stage anymore. It was like, all right,

Andy: 7:35

is that what happened? Weiger was a, how long did he do improv for?

Mike: 7:39

he did improv for a really long time. It was really funny too. Sean. Did you, you coached their team at one point? Didn't

Sean: 7:43

I definitely worked with Nick quite a bit a long time ago, and he was great. I remember really enjoying what he did on stage, you know. Apparently he did not, so that's too bad.

Mike: 7:53

He, he, he just, he decided one day he was like, that's it. I'm done. He just was like, I'm done. And he was, and he retired for real. He never, he never went back,

Andy: 8:01

actually pretty

Mike: 8:02

of impressive. Yeah.

Sean: 8:04

I feel like that shows a certain mental health that other people such as myself are lacking,

Mike: 8:09

Yeah, but also he's like also kind of scary how little it maybe meant to him You're like, didn't mean a little bit to you. And he is kinda like Nope..You're like, oh, all right. He, he,

Andy: 8:19

You're forwarding the sociopath theory,

Mike: 8:22

he got a Little bit

Andy: 8:24

yeah, improv meant nothing, human beings meant nothing to him.

Mike: 8:28

I think that is his take. I don't want to quote him but he is kind of like a He's a scary man. I love him. And he was a great improviser. So it is, it is sad, but he, yeah, he, he put his foot down, which also kind of scares you that he just one day will be like, our podcast is done. And you're like, oh, all right, I guess it's over.

Andy: 8:45

Are you, are

Mike: 8:45

It won't have meant anything to

Andy: 8:46

So you're not

Mike: 8:47

I mean, also like it's a release too, if it feels like it would be freedom in some ways.

Andy: 8:51

Right. Yes. We're just at the beginning of our, of

Sean: 8:54

I do text Andy every night saying, this is it, we're done. And then I, the next morning I'm like, kidding again, you know,

Andy: 9:02

It's really cruel actually. It's not, it's not, not a comfortable way to live.

Sean: 9:06

keeps him up every night. He just lies in bed awake going, are we really done?

Andy: 9:12

So I thought we would begin this conversation. it's as you were our first guest, this is all going to be even, more ramshackle than usual. but, uh, Mitch, I was curious what, If generally speaking, you have like TV ringers that you're like, these are amongst my like favorite shows that I just like keep going back to.

Mike: 9:31

man. Well, I mean, Simpsons is one of them and then I I'll always watch the Seinfeld if it's on. I, I told you beforehand cheers is, not only that it takes place in Boston, which is nice, but also I just, I think that is one of my, I think it's my favorite multicam sitcom of all time.

Sean: 9:48

And you said it's good. Yeah.

Mike: 9:50

I did my review for the, for the cheers pilot. I spoiler alert, I told these guys it's good. It is a good, it's a good, it's a good pilot. Uh,

Andy: 9:58

torn it. We're going to do, we're going to do cheers at some point on the pilots podcast

Mike: 10:04

Cheers is a great one. I mean, I always will watch Sopranos over and over again, which is a very different, much like today's pilot. It feels very different from what the show kind of became.

Andy: 10:15

absolutely. which is a thing that we like to sort of dig into, I don't know if you had a chance, uh, Mitch, to look at not just the Christmas episode of The Simpsons, which was the official first quote pilot, but the first Simpsons short, that aired on The Tracey Ullman Show, and then the, aborted pilot. That ended up in a later episode of The Simpsons, sort of at least piecemeal. so, uh, maybe, maybe we start off, talking about the short,

Sean: 10:45

Yeah. the short is, is I guess called good night. that's the name that I saw. affixed to it and it starts with Bart and Homer Bart is Just in that phase of curiosity that kids go through and he wants to understand the world he asks Homer what the mind is which is kind of a difficult question to answer And, uh, Homer does his best, which is not great, and then we spend some time with Lisa being told to not let the bedbugs bite her by Marge, and,

Andy: 11:21

as is the phrase, don't let the bedbugs bite her

Sean: 11:24

you know, I like to say it exactly the way it is on the show.

Andy: 11:27

Sure.

Sean: 11:27

Uh, I hope you don't end up pulling an all nighter, but don't let the bedbugs bite her. and then we get Maggie who, uh, gets sung the lullaby, Rockabye Baby. And of course, Homer and Marge are so proud of themselves for being great parents and putting the kids to bed so easily. And the kids are all Terrified.

Mike: 11:48

fully clothed in bed.

Andy: 11:50

Oh, that's good catch. Yeah.

Mike: 11:54

whatever they were wearing, I guess, like in every other scene. They're just in, in their bed with in Homer and Marge, too, I believe, or have, a, are fully clothed in their bed. Homer sounds like Walter Matthau. I was going to say to you guys that when, if you listen, when you go back and listen to this episode, you got, your voices are going to sound really different. It's going to be as different Homer sounds in the, in the, in this,

Andy: 12:15

Then I go,

Sean: 12:15

I don't, I don't think that's true.

Andy: 12:17

years from now, I'll just be like, wow, I sounded like this. Yeah, Homer, it's, that's the most startling thing, is the change in the characterization of Homer. Who's more like this, he's like, you're right, just like this mush mouthed, maloking morge. It's like, sounds like he's being slowed down. Uh, it's very disturbing.

Mike: 12:37

sounds like that, And she sounds like it's crazy. It's like a 40 year old woman doing the voice at that point. It's like a, you know, a young lady, a young woman doing the voice. And it sounds, she sounds very insane. Yeah. She sounds ancient. Bart,

Andy: 12:52

it's closer to what Marge's sisters became in terms of characterization

Mike: 12:57

Mhmm, mhmm.

Andy: 12:59

Julie Kavner.

Mike: 13:01

kinda consistent, right? I mean, he's a little, he's a little

Andy: 13:03

Yeah, Bart, uh, stayed sane, but that's, that's probably just because that's her, her voice

Mike: 13:09

Yeah, yeah,

Sean: 13:11

and I thought as a, as a comedic concept, it worked. It worked pretty well. Like I enjoyed The idea behind it, you know?

Andy: 13:18

it was very, it was very succinct. Uh, just to add onto that, that's, uh, that's probably just because that was Nancy cart writes, uh, actual voice. uh, yeah,

Mike: 13:27

you're in yearly, yearly, Smith's real voice too, basically, for Lisa.

Andy: 13:31

And so that's why probably through all of these, they're the ones that are the the closest to who they would later, later be as characters. But also the one thing that bumped me, there's this Homer voice, a hundred percent, and then also the first interaction of, of Bart and And, uh, Homer are completely, like, seem fully off character. It doesn't seem like he would be saying goodnight, son, in such a, an affectionate way. His first line is, Dad, what is the mind? Is it just a system of impulses or is it something tangible? Uh, relax, what is mind? No matter what is matter, never mind. And it's like, it's such a weird cerebral wordplay, like, that Homer would never be capable of and Bart would never be interested in. But I wondered if you're, as a, as a longtime fan, Mitch, if you felt like Bart was like, Oh, he does have shades of that later on.

Mike: 14:26

I mean, he is, it seems like he's way more thoughtful. I mean, they kind of make Bart a little bit dumber as the show goes on too, but

Andy: 14:33

Right. And obviously Homer.

Mike: 14:34

Yeah, Homer, yeah, gets dumber and dumber and dumber, but like, yeah, this is, this is like still the Simpsons going to church mode. They're like a church going, family, and I, that vibe is, It's funny to to watch it. I, because I'm like, this, this caused, like, mass Like hysteria, like people went like insane over the Simpsons for like, this was, this is the Genesis of it all is this short, which feels, it does feel the most from, um, it feels like a Matt Groening comic strip, I guess. In many ways like I'm like Oh, I can see this being like a Simpsons comic strip and not me being like, Oh, okay, that was it. It's not bad. Like you guys are saying it's just I don't know how it led to I think Bart's attitude maybe later on is what caused people to

Sean: 15:21

Yeah, I think, I mean, my recollection certainly is that the Simpsons really offended people a little later in the, sequence of things. we'll, we'll get to the whole pilot later, but there's a couple things in the pilot which, that's the stuff that people were like, how dare someone do that kind of thing.

Andy: 15:40

is so crazy because that, that, yeah, that pilot is, even in Simpsons terms is the most, the softest, most treacly version of the Simpsons that we're going to see. Do you want to talk about the aborted pilot, which is, I understand it was, and later became partly some enchanted evening, but like, this is, it's just the most crude, uh, sort of visual versions of these characters and vocal versions of these characters. And, just like, Homer looks completely weird, and all of the characterizations are sort of, off, somehow. And

Mike: 16:19

the abortion. Well, well, uh, fix the, I shouldn't, what am I, I'm fucking up my words here. Don't quote me on any of that. But,

Andy: 16:27

thanks for coming on our podcast and ruining it immediately, Mitch.

Sean: 16:31

Well, I mean, I will say, had they overturned Roe v. Wade before this pilot, we would have seen it as the pilot.

Mike: 16:39

that's,

Andy: 16:40

for the direction of our first guest.

Mike: 16:42

I I think that there's some stuff in this pilot that shouldn't have been a aborted. Uh, I think that there's, there's like there is some stuff visually where I'm like, it kind of looks. It kind of is weirder than The Simpsons was for the first few years. It's like, the animation style is kind of like, bizarre and, cool. But, I like what The Simpsons became, So I'm not like, you know,

Andy: 17:05

this is sort of the interesting thing. I'm very interested

Mike: 17:07

get that out there.

Andy: 17:08

Say that last part again.

Mike: 17:10

I'm pro abortion. I'm pro that they aborted it. And also in the other way.

Andy: 17:15

make sure, we'll make sure, we'll put that, we'll put that, this will be the clip at the top of the episode to get people really interested and want to watch and want to listen to the rest. well, I'm curious before I get to the second part of it, what are the aesthetic aspects that, that like grabbed you and that you liked

Mike: 17:30

It was funny because it probably is like stuff that I like over time. I think it was just interesting to see the Simpsons look this way, but they looked like a little like slippier and more cartoony almost in like the house kind of had like, you know, like the hallways would seem big at times and it felt like very much like. Where, where I think what they went into was kind of more realism, you know, like, even though the show can be insane and, but in that pilot specifically the one that they, that they got rid of, it is like, oh, this feels way more like a cartoon than, than eventually what they went to.

Andy: 18:02

I think that's a really good point and I also think it's like, uh, A, it kind of reminds me of early Mickey Mouse in how he's kind of a little bit rougher, rough, more roughly drawn and Oswald the Rabbit and all the other versions of Disney before they sort of evolved into the corporate version of, of Mickey Mouse. But I think also, uh, It's probably more similar to Matt Groening's original cartoons. And it kind of highlights how even drawing the same characters and the same concept, and a lot of the same, uh, choices in terms of colors and everything else, that stylistically, It could be so different, um, and it's interesting that when, uh, when a cartoon show that's been running so long just locks into its style and just like, no, that's how that character is always going to be drawn. And maybe we'll make adjustments over time, but that's basically it.

Sean: 18:53

it's like Robert Downey Jr., Jr. in, uh, Back to School, and then you see him as Iron Man, and he's really, like, totally different style, and, you

Andy: 19:02

that's just a human being. He just, he just aged and was in different parts. That's not a cartoon character.

Sean: 19:07

be that as it may.

Andy: 19:09

Um,

Mike: 19:10

I agree. I agree with Sean.

Andy: 19:11

I think there is also a, a later episode. I think it's the clip show with maybe Troy McClure hosting where they, where he, it's like, they show a clip of one of these first things and he's basically saying, this is what it originally looked like and it's them being weird. And, you know, Homer's weird, like, well, why this is what I think. Boy, and, uh, and it's sort of slow as, as a lot of this is, and then it cuts back to Troy McClure and he's sort of looking at it like stunned, like, and then he looks, we realized the camera's on him and he goes, it's a great bit. So,

Mike: 19:46

it really does. I mean, in many ways it is. I mean, I love it, but it is kind of shitty, right? Like it is,

Sean: 19:52

It's also interesting, it's also interesting to look at in terms of, of story stuff. Because to me, it feels very, I don't know, proof of concept or something where it was almost like prove to us that you can tell a story. And the story is kind of there, even though they don't get real into all of it. You go, Oh, okay. this could be an interesting story in some way. You know, says,

Andy: 20:14

uh, they also are more hostile, the Simpsons, I think, generally to each other in this version. I think that Homer's angrier, and I think he's a little bit angrier even in the episode we're about to cover, Simpsons Roasting on an Open Fire, he has a little bit more anger than I think he, later, I think they play him more toward just dumb, and he'll do the strangling Bart kind of thing, but, He won't be overall as hostile, and in this one, it's like he's not kissing Marge on the way out. This is to me the biggest distinction I would make, is that Homer loves Marge, and tells her he loves her. They even make a point in the Simpsons Roasting Oven on an Open Fire about I don't remember what the line is, but basically he's saying, I just want to tell you I love you. And he's, she's like, you tell me that all the time. And it's like, it's very clear. And in this, this little pilot, he's like walking out the door. He doesn't care about her. She's calling the call in show to complain about him.

Sean: 21:11

she says, my husband is a selfish pig,

Andy: 21:14

Yes. It's like, you can, Marge would never say that. Unless that was part of a specific story point in that episode.

Mike: 21:23

is like, there is like a one late, there was an episode a couple of seasons in where she's like, March has this storyline basically where she calls into like radio help like they, I think they use this story later on, but you're right. it feels like, Jim Brooks watched the pilot, and then it got like a Jim Brooks, like, family treatment. It feels like it really, like,

Andy: 21:43

Right.

Mike: 21:43

really, switched it up. Which, honestly, kind of works, too. I mean it

Andy: 21:47

is the, this is the weird thing. And then I would say, I would say that a lot of my struggles early on starting writing, sitcom fare is that I, like you, came from like, Seinfeld is where it's at, if, if anything is, so it's more, let's do more cynical and more You know, a little bit of a darker underside and they're always pushing in the opposite direction. And it's interesting to look at this pilot, the first pilot versus Simpsons roasting on an open fire, because it's sort of like, Oh yeah, I don't know if I would have been on board with these people. You kind of, and it allows you, if you have that love, and I think this is true on the Goldbergs too, because there was sort of, a hostile undertone. on the Goldbergs that they kept pushing away from and they, we eventually locked into, that Beverly can get away with anything as long as it's under the, in the context of that she's doing this for the love of her children, whether it's true or it's not, even though it's obviously out of narcissism, that's what the character thinks. And I think by the same token, you can have, Homer be an idiot. and constantly screw up and even be greedy and sort of act selfishly as long as essentially he loves Marge and he is committed to this family. And that is, I think, a little in doubt in this, in this first version.

Mike: 23:04

He slams the door in her face. Marge's

Andy: 23:06

Yeah, as she's trying to kiss him.

Mike: 23:08

Yes, he's trying to kiss him. it is very cartoony. I mean, it is, now I feel like so many shows are probably closer to that, right? I don't know how many shows are kind of like take their time and are based in animated shows and based in reality, I mean like Bob's Burgers or

Sean: 23:25

Well, I, I, you know, I, came up differently. My, my influences early on were the sweet shows like, Full House, that type of thing, which is how I ended up really enjoying working on Mr. Pickles, which was just a very sweet, family show. So, we, we didn't really,

Andy: 23:43

but obviously that is on adult swim. So it's a whole different handbook and they can get away with anything. to go back to the sort of the overview of this, since we were talking about the shorts, I have a feeling Mitch, you were, you're being much younger than us. Maybe you didn't see the original Simpsons shorts, or did you see them later? Because I saw them originally during Tracy Ullman's show, and those were the parts that I loved the most.

Mike: 24:07

That's funny. No, I, I didn't have, I didn't, uh, watch Tracy Elman show. I didn't cause it was at an HBO show, right? Is that was, was it on? And I was

Andy: 24:14

was a, it was a Fox show, I believe.

Mike: 24:16

it a Fox? I was, I was also in when the Simpsons came out, I was in first grade. So I don't know. I knew that there was hype. When the show came out, and I was watching it that first year, like, in the first season, and I had a Bart Simpson t shirt, and with, and that was what caused the big problems at elementary schools

Sean: 24:36

right, there was a whole thing where you were not allowed to wear Bart Simpson t shirts to school anymore at some point or something like that. that. You

Mike: 24:43

yeah, there was even like, there was a Maggie teacher that just said, suck, suck. And people are like, can't wear that. the Bart Simpson t shirt, which he, the line that he says, Sean, which you were referencing which he says in the pilot is I'm Bart Simpson. Who the hell are you?

Sean: 24:57

Right, and that just drove people out of their minds.

Andy: 25:01

It's, it's so insane.

Mike: 25:03

it isn't, it does feel like I came, I did watch Family Matters and Full House and that, all the, like the kind of bad, like

Sean: 25:10

Uh huh.

Mike: 25:12

and it is like, it's really not that far from from any of those shows, like, it's basically just saying hell, you know what I mean, like, it, but rewatching the pilot, and I haven't rewatched the first season in a while, but I used to rewatch seasons like one through eight every couple of years, because that's, those eight, and I still think that they are still like some of the funniest TV that there is, but the first season I haven't watched through in a while.

Andy: 25:35

now are you, uh, of the, demo and the Simpsons fan base that, believes this is the point, like you have a decision in your head of like, this is the point when the Simpsons, quote, went off the rails, or wasn't as good as it was before, because I know, the Simpsons diehards, like a lot of them believe like, Oh, it wasn't as good. I personally speaking as someone who has not been watching as, carefully, you know, over time, anytime I checked back in, I can see the change in tone over time, but I always think that there are fantastic jokes. And even, you know, up to the, up to the 35th season, which is what they're in now.

Mike: 26:13

so I worked there did you know this that I worked there as a, an assistant

Andy: 26:17

This is perfect. Oh, great. Inside scoop.

Mike: 26:20

I worked there for about four years, the last writer's strike in 2007, I, uh, I was working on a show called Shark with James Woods, um, He's a great guy. Of course, as we

Sean: 26:34

He seems very cool.

Mike: 26:36

yeah, he's a really, it's a cool show to work on as a James Wood show. And, um, the 2007 writer's strike started and I had been out here for a couple of years at that point. And, I was on the Fox lot and I just called the Simpsons offices and I was like, Hey, are you guys like hiring? And then I got a job as an assistant to the writers. Uh, and so when I started there, it was right after the. Movie had come out. and so there was a bit of like, Hey, we're back sort of a vibe there. But then also even in the first day, I won't tell, I say who the writer was, but even in my first day there, there was a writer was like, we're all just waiting for the show to die. That's what he told me on the first day. but, and this was

Andy: 27:14

was this?

Mike: 27:15

This is 2007. So this is

Andy: 27:17

ha

Mike: 27:19

Uh,

Sean: 27:20

Well, the great thing about, the great thing about writers in Hollywood and, and being in a writer's room is that everybody is always so positive. Uh, but, but, by the way, I, I feel like there's like a Lovecraftian creature right next

Mike: 27:34

That's, my cat Irma's tail. I apologize. I'm like now pushing her head away from the computer.

Andy: 27:40

I'm such a showbiz, I'm such a showbiz douche that I thought that you had an extra boom mic that you had above it. I was just like, that's weird. This guy's really, he's a, this guy is a podcasting pro. He's adjusting his own boom mic.

Mike: 27:54

That's just Irma's tail popping in and she is actively trying to close the laptop. Um,

Sean: 28:00

Even then they were like, this fucking thing is over, basically.

Mike: 28:05

yeah, I mean, there were definitely guys who thought that. And the, but also like they're, they were all fun, you know, even the guy who said that it was like a, like one of the nicest guys there and super positive. I think they just are all like, we've been lucky for so long. And, uh, like one of the writers who passed, who has since passed away there and I loved him. Uh, he was like, he came in to get his paycheck one time and he was like, I was like, he's like, do you want to see it? And I was like, yeah, it was for two weeks and it was more than I made in the entire year and two weeks. And I was like, Oh. Why would you ever leave this job? First of all, it is like an instance, It's like an SNL thing. I feel like over time, it maybe doesn't feel as much like that anymore, but I don't, I don't know. But I think there's so many funny people there that are hilarious and they still write funny jokes and they still write good episodes. It's just that there's one, you know, a million more channels now. And it's, I still think anytime, like, You know, you offer anyone to come to a Simpsons table read and stuff like that, they go crazy because it's like it still has that appeal, but I don't

Andy: 29:03

for sure,

Sean: 29:04

Well, it was it was it was a new like Fox was a new network It was one of the it was the time of like the real culture wars of who the hell are you? How are they allowed to say that? That's a that's a harbinger of the decline of Western civilization Things are just gonna you know And luckily those culture wars all ended in the 90s and we haven't had to deal with that ever since then Um, But it was very, you know, it was very new and I feel like that's just not true anymore, obviously, you know, um, there's lots of other stuff that's come out that's like, oh, that's cool, but it's all been influenced by those first several

Mike: 29:40

yeah, So South Park, which I love. I mean, like in South Park came up when I was like. 13 or 14. And I did love South Park when it came out and I still, I give credit to both of those shows because I still think that South Park makes funny comedy. I think The Simpsons does too. I, watched South Park more than I probably watched The Simpsons, but Matt's Matt Selman, you know, Selman, he kind of runs the, show over at The Simpsons now. And, uh, Al Jean was I think still works in that capacity in some ways. But he was the show runner when I was there. And I think it's Selman, Matt Selman now. and I love Selman. He's so funny and he does a great job. It's just like you were saying, Sean, it's there's now there's a million different versions of the Simpsons that are, you know, like it's Rick and Morty or whatever is the, or now even past Rick and Morty. Now Rick and Morty is like dated probably. But

Andy: 30:26

connecting those two together, South Park and The Simpsons, a question that I had, and maybe, maybe you have some, perspective on, although I don't know how deep inside the writer's room you were, or if you were just getting coffee, but,

Mike: 30:37

was mostly getting coffee, but I like, it was fun to be there during like the Simpsons, like the biography or, you know, like the, the, you know, like the SNL history book. There was like a, like a complete history of the Simpsons that came out when I was there. And I remember they were on a writer's retreat and I told Al, the showrunners, like, did you see the book yet? And he was like, no. And he was like, go get me like three copies. And I got them and it was for him and Matt Groening and Jim Brooks. And then the next day, one of the writers were like, you asshole. They like. I Read that book all night and like, we didn't get anything done. And I was like, Oh, I'm sorry.

Andy: 31:11

I love everything about this. First of all, the first story you told about the writer being like, I'm just waiting for this to be canceled on this, like incredibly lucrative, like enviable position is so couldn't be more comedy writer. And this, this story too, just like, it's about their entire, you know, life's work. And yet the comedy writers who are in the staff in the room, it's just like. Oh, now we have to stay late.

Mike: 31:37

Well, do you know, what, you know, it's great. I mean, they, when I, when I first got there, it was after the writer's strike. So they had to do like double duty basically. And they were staying till like, nine and 10 and like sometimes

Sean: 31:49

That, by the way, sounds like a dream to me.

Mike: 31:51

yeah, I mean, they could come in at like 11 or even 1130 or something, you know, like, but, they were, they were staying later and it was, I think a time where they're like, oh fuck, this kind of sucks. you know, it was like, it was double time and they weren't, they weren't extremely happy, but yeah, you know, it's funny because Fox. Also kind of treated them like shit, which is another funny showbiz thing. where it's like,

Andy: 32:12

Even at the point you were at, that you were there, which is like well into their, that they're a dependable, constant moneymaker that can't be killed.

Mike: 32:21

yeah, no, I mean like, and still like internationally, we're just like cleaning up of course. But when I was there to like, there's two sides of this. One, I got lunches. I was the lunch guy, but they would, you know, they

Andy: 32:33

The Hosted Doughboy is getting them lunch. This is a, what a, what a time to be alive.

Mike: 32:38

it

Sean: 32:38

I heard he was going to have another podcast about pilots, but then he didn't.

Mike: 32:43

This is true, which I thought would be interesting to discuss about a pilot pod, a podcast pilot. I never made,

Andy: 32:49

which is called Pilot Program.

Mike: 32:51

I was doing it with Jack Allison, as like I said, Jack was like, let's not podcast anymore, which may be for all of us is the right answer as we've discussed

Andy: 32:59

he's way ahead of the curve on that. Me and Sean are completely deluded. We're getting We decided We decided to get into the podcasting game just as it was about done, except unless you're internationally famous. Um, gosh, I have so many questions.'cause it also was like, uh, why pilot program? Because we've certainly debated endlessly co-pilots.

Mike: 33:21

pilot program was like, I don't know, because it just is a term. I guess we were like pilot program. it

Andy: 33:27

It sounds like, sounds like you gave, you gave it just fractionally less thought than we gave ours.

Mike: 33:33

It was like on a list of for, for, so for our Patreon episodes, it was like on a list of like, what should we do for Patreon episodes? And one of them was me just being like, pilot program. We would discuss a pilot and then we rank it as like, first class or business

Andy: 33:47

Oh. Ooh. Should we, should we stare that? Should we steal that? Sean we've been trying to figure out a ranking system that doesn't feel bullshit.

Mike: 33:55

please, do. Please steal, please, please steal first class. Um. Which Cheers is a, is, is a first class pilot, I'll say, besides being good.

Sean: 34:04

of Coach end up?

Mike: 34:06

Ironically, not in coach. I don't think, I think it's actually a pretty good pilot. I believe. Coach. I think, it, I think, it, I think it's like business plus. Why not?

Andy: 34:14

maybe this is, maybe this is the way

Mike: 34:16

Should I, should I have just said coach? I should have shoulda just said coach.

Andy: 34:19

that's Sean, what Sean just gave you

Sean: 34:20

right answer.

Andy: 34:22

just gave you an improv note just there. Um, that's your hero, Mitch. That's your improv hero.

Mike: 34:30

He's making me laugh still.

Andy: 34:31

Ah, shut up.

Mike: 34:33

up. I'm sorry.

Andy: 34:34

Um, this was the question.

Sean: 34:36

that and work it into a joke that we can use for triumph.

Andy: 34:42

I was also an able improviser, Mitch. I just wasn't on the West Coast for you to see.

Mike: 34:48

And you're an Ithaca alum as well.

Andy: 34:49

That's right. We're both from Ithaca. Thanks.

Mike: 34:52

it was a crazy, you know, like it was a weird time to be at. That show a little bit. I feel like the ride came out while I was there. That's like the movie had just come out and then the ride came out. And then besides that, in the four years I was there, nothing, not too much else was,

Andy: 35:08

How did they react to the ride? Because this was another thing I was curious about.

Mike: 35:12

When the ride first opened, I think people were really nice about it. I feel like the ride has aged kind of poorly. I don't know if you've been on it recently, but, uh, like when you're in

Andy: 35:21

I go every weekend.

Mike: 35:24

The screen looks just kind of faded. I don't like, uh, it, I think that Simpsons land is great. And I think it's, you go to,

Andy: 35:30

I think, I would go so far as to say Simpsons land is, you know, the Harry Potter land is, is incredibly impressive. Here's my, here's my overall, we're so off track. I think Harry Potter, the design of Harry Potter land is amazing. I'm always perpetually disappointed in the one Harry Potter ride, the dark ride, where it kind of goes through, I'm just like, come on, you already did Spider Man, this, this should be better than Spider Man, you got more money than that, and Spider Man's the best, best ride ever.

Sean: 35:57

I love, uh, Agatha Christie novels. I'm just, I'm just putting it out

Andy: 36:01

Which ride is that Sean?

Sean: 36:03

No, I I thought we were just talking about things we liked.

Andy: 36:06

my point is the Simpsons land is just in independent of the ride is fantastic. It is so detailed and when you walk in, it's to a Simpsons fan is like, am I wrong about that? It's just so beautifully designed,

Mike: 36:22

it is now also 20 years old, which is like almost 20 years old, you know, which is crazy

Andy: 36:28

it

Mike: 36:28

of that, that's like at least, at least 15 to 16 years old now, but Harry, they just get big, like Mario world is crazy, and the Harry Potter world, I feel like they're putting more and more Money into the theme park, and I'm sure that they'll redo Simpsons World at one point. I told Al, Gene, that it was like, I remember I was driving with him, and he's like, My mom can't go on the ride, and I was like, Actually, I think there's a part where you can sit, and it doesn't move, and he called his mom up and told her that, and I was wrong. You can't. You can't, you can't do that.

Andy: 36:56

his mom was terribly injured, it was uh, it burned your relationship with Elgene.

Mike: 37:02

ha!

Sean: 37:02

lucky you brought me that book, pal.

Andy: 37:05

So wait, I just want to make sure, did I get an answer to this question? What was their reaction inside the show to the idea that they were doing this ride or, or having gone on it? Or

Mike: 37:16

Matt Warburton wrote a lot, like, wrote a lot of the ride, and he's great. Uh, he's a funny dude, and then, I think that they were, like, excited by it And then they've had the Simpsons premier party has taken place at Universal almost every year since then. So like, I think that that's fun for them, you know what I mean? Like, they go up there and, and there's a huge, you know, it's like a gigantic staff. It's film Roman and, uh, a bunch of animators and, and all the writers and all the staff that, that are a part of it. So it's like, it's perfect. And they fill up that entire, in all of Simpsons land, basically

Andy: 37:49

that's really fun.

Mike: 37:50

Yeah,

Andy: 37:51

the question I was going to ask before that's, South Park related is South Park obviously has the episode, uh, yeah, where it's Simpsons did it. Correct. Or is that. Or wait, am I thinking of,

Mike: 38:03

No, there's no you're right. there's I have the answer to this cause I am a South Park nerd. Also, there's Simpsons did it, which was its own episode. And then there's also Cartoon Wars, which is South Park made fun of family guy And

Sean: 38:18

the walruses, was it? Or

Andy: 38:20

Right. Okay. That was a separate issue. Yes. So Simpsons did. It was a separate issue. So it was a separate episode.

Mike: 38:26

which is almost like giving them like giving the Simpsons credit. It's like they've done every idea. It was kind of like it wasn't too biting, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. Like, it

Andy: 38:34

that wasn't as much of an attack. I think that was probably more, if I'm to assume from a, from a comedy writer's perspective, that's more them. admitting to the shadow that the Simpsons cast and how many problems it causes them and probably other animated shows, uh, moving forward because Simpsons has run, it seems, eternally. So I guess my question was Internally in the show, in your experience at that time, it had already been running for, you know, almost two decades. Did they have that fatigue, like story fatigue themselves?

Mike: 39:11

yeah, I think that yes, because it would be like a part of my job was to go and get like movies and books or whatever. And they would try to, you know, like, it would be more obscure stuff that they were just there was a, DVD shop down the street that Kevin Smith bought eventually, but at the time, it wasn't owned by Kevin Smith. But I'd go down there and like, grab, you know, Any sort of DVD and they would like pull specific references from it and after table reads like so there were table read weeks where they were, I think it was Thursday, they'd read the script out loud, and then before they sent it off, to get, so on Monday it would be recorded, that was the record day, was Monday after the following Monday. So. You do the table read and then like Thursday night and Friday, they would just like rewrite it. And like, it would be like, the story's not working. And then like, God forbid, if Jim Brooks was there and was like, I'd like this, I don't like what the story is, then they would be there for so long. You know what I mean? Like, both those nights, they would be like, I mean, again, to like, you know, sometimes 10 something.

Andy: 40:14

so, which of course, just for, for the record is obviously. On some shows, that's standard. On Goldberg's, we went that late often. And then, and then there's, you got some that you send people to get out at five on the dot, like, uh, how I met your mother, I think was notoriously would get out

Mike: 40:30

I think that that's that. I

Andy: 40:31

and then you got community, which is like, they could have been there all night, literally, why are

Mike: 40:39

with it is like, this is like such a well oiled machine. Why, why, you know, why does it, but you know, like, I think a story meant a lot to Al and if Jim was there, it was always like. If he had an issue with the story, it was like, you're, this is going to be like a long night and we're going to get dinner, which I had to get them. But that was, I mean, the most interesting part of the thing was, it was table reads and records. and I got to know a lot of those people. Pamela Hayden, this is a very nice thing. I, I, she calls me every year on the anniversary of my dad passing away. She gives me a call. She, I love her. She's like a lot of, uh, big, uh, big sister energy. I like her a lot, but it is a weird. Place to work in an institution and weirdly Fox was like annoying with them. There's, it's like, it's two sided because when I was there, I was like, man, they spend so much money on lunch. And also like, when you're in a writer's room, as you guys know, it's like, you can't really go anywhere and you're kind of stuck there. And it's like, Lunch is your outlet, but it was their lunch orders were crazy and it was like, you know, covering 30 people and I remember one day it was like a thousand dollars just for the restaurant because we got restaurant and commissary and so it was it was way too much money and Fox is like, what the fuck? And they were like, we've got to cut back on. On what you're spending on lunch and they were always kind of like giving them shit as far as money goes Fox sucks anyways, but in the last few years, I think they did Because they used to have consulting producers which were like a ton of funny people tom gammel max pross who are seinfeld writers and like mike Reiss and mike scully who ran the show for a while and mike Reiss did too, but All these guys. And then they, I think at one point they like got rid of the consulting producers, and then I think a lot of those guys had to be staffed and like, they may just, they made like budget cuts for a first, for a show. That's still, I'm sure just pulls in. It still is just making them money, right? There's no way that it's not

Andy: 42:28

There's no way. They must. But I mean, even if it's not, there's certain things, there's certain shows that they hang on, you know, a network will hang on to as a prestige show. It's just like, well, this makes us look good. This makes us look like the lights are on, like we're still making successful shows, but there's just no way based on, I mean, I, I'm sure that the, all the. You know, the cost of the, of the, of the senior writers and the cast and all that stuff has skyrocketed, but it's the Simpsons. I mean, there's no way that it's not still insanely

Sean: 43:00

But, But, but, you guys know that we've reached end stage capitalism and the people at the top need to exploit the people below them as much as possible to rake in as much cash as they possibly can to build their escape fortresses in New Zealand or wherever the fuck. So, I get it, I get it. Like, yeah, let's not spend a lot on lunch,

Andy: 43:20

I should, I should have

Mike: 43:21

that, I got that side of it.

Andy: 43:23

I should have warned you, Mitch, that Sean is trying to use this podcast. The only reason he wanted to get in is so that he could sort of unthrown capitalism. Um,

Mike: 43:31

I watched Leave the World Behind this last weekend. so I get it. I'm already on board with it. I don't know if you've seen it yet, but it's it has a lot of these, it has, it covers a lot of this shit. I'm with you, Sean,

Andy: 43:41

shouldn't you, shouldn't you create a podcast that's, you know, that's more political out of the gate? And he was like, no, if it's on this, this pilot idea where we're talking about TV pilots, they won't see it coming. And,

Sean: 43:52

Yeah, you gotta sneak it in, you know? You gotta, like, Fahrenheit 451 or 1984. Those are just novels. But then when you look at them, there's a message there. So that's what we're doing here.

Mike: 44:04

I will say this. when there was like a new contract, which I think happened twice when I was there, or maybe anytime I heard that there was a new contract, they'd always be like, I think these are the last two, or you know, like, I think this is the last three, they always would say that, and then it just kept, you know, they, kept going, the show kept going, and I'm happy to, I think Selman is great, and, so I want it to keep going.

Andy: 44:25

This is great. I love the wealth of, of behind the scenes information or the way that we were sort of, we were sort of planning to structure this podcast is to have people talk, come on the show and talk about things that they were more, they were, they were a fan of, or they hated, or that they had something to say about, and then have people talk about. Things they were associated with maybe later down the line. So this is a real bonus episode and that we're getting this behind the scenes information from a

Mike: 44:49

something I could have told you, I could have told you beforehand to you, but yeah, I

Andy: 44:53

No, I think you, you tricked us into, into making an effective, uh, effective podcasting choice.

Sean: 44:59

Yeah, not cool that you sprung it on us like this. Did you see how we both froze up?

Mike: 45:06

will, do you do you want me, you want me to give you the last bit of gossip,

Andy: 45:09

Please tell, tell us everything that you want.

Mike: 45:11

the last bit is that. When I was there, it's when Harry, Sheer stopped going in. so that was, Harry was tough. I feel like Harry, it is crazy also because like Harry is like now like, like close to 80 years old, right? He's, all, of, all of the, all of the voice actors. have been doing the show for like 40, I mean, 40 years, almost, 35, 35 years. but Harry was like, Harry was tough. And then there was a point where he's like, I'm no longer coming in. I don't want to be around anybody basically.

Andy: 45:42

Uh huh. I'm surprised that that was, so the rest of the cast still comes in for table reads and everything.

Mike: 45:49

they did for, for a long time when I was there is Harry stopped coming in for table reads. He was coming in and then there were contract negotiations. And I think that that's what, like, When

Andy: 46:00

What year, what season was that roughly?

Mike: 46:02

is 2008 or so, or you know what I mean?

Andy: 46:05

I'm kind of, I don't know Harry Shearer, but just my outside sense of Harry Shearer, I'm shocked that he hung in that long.

Mike: 46:13

yeah. Yeah. I mean the money is good I'm sure you know, like, I think that that's probably a big part of it, but

Sean: 46:19

I bet as soon as he heard they were cutting lunches, he was like, not interested, you know.

Mike: 46:25

Fox was I mean Fox, of course Fox Sucks in many ways and I was team Simpsons on that one. I

Andy: 46:32

What is the, do you know what the source of the, the contentiousness was? Obviously there's, there's always budgetary debates, but like, why did Fox not seem to, from your perspective, value

Mike: 46:44

I don't know. I, I just think, I think it was just a thing that's like been around forever and Instead of like respecting that and thinking it's like this is a good thing I think it was more like these fucking guys. They're costing us they're eating so much lunch we got to cut back on this lunch. And it

Andy: 47:00

sighted. That's

Sean: 47:01

I'm, guessing there's also an element of like, The people who set everything up were gone by then. So there's new people in there and they're like, wait a minute, we're paying these people How much? No, no, no, no, no. As opposed to building something with them the way they did early days.

Mike: 47:19

Mm hmm. I think you're 100 percent right. I think that is, that is what it was. It's like yeah. the people who were around when the show started or have like, long since retired and you know,

Sean: 47:30

right.

Mike: 47:30

yeah,

Sean: 47:31

Well, do you want to get into the, do you want to get into the episode?

Andy: 47:34

Yeah, let's get into the episode.

Sean: 47:36

want to talk more about rides?

Andy: 47:39

you know what, Sean? Two of the people on here, I bet, are very interested in theme park rides. And, uh, you're just dragging us down because you want to talk about, obscure Shakespeare sonnets or whatever the hell Fancy Pants Conroy wants to talk about.

Sean: 47:53

hair's like black wires! Yeah. By

Mike: 47:59

fun. Uh, I would enjoy that.

Sean: 48:02

By the end of it, there's just nobody left in the car.

Andy: 48:06

alright. We're gonna get into it, uh, talking about the, the pilot

Mike: 48:10

I say, can I say one last thing about rides that Harry Potter ride that you brought up? Was the only ride ever that I, couldn't fit into. like, I went on that ride and they were like, it has to get to like three levels of green. And it was at two levels and one was red and like, you got to take a walk. And I was like, I'm a big guy, but I was like, this has never happened to me before, and I was like, ashamed and upset. And then I looked online and. Apparently it was like an issue. And when I was leaving, I was leaving with like a dozen other big dudes, but not like, It wasn't like crazy, but it was like a good number of big dudes. And then I read online. It was like, oh yeah, the ride in universal is like, it's a little bit sizist is what people were saying.

Andy: 48:52

I'm surprised that, something from the JK Rowling estate would, uh, have that kind of lack of body inclusivity in any way. It's very, very

Mike: 49:00

That's a good point

Sean: 49:01

you, did you have a moment at all when you were walking out with all these other guys where you were like, Maybe we should start a gang together.

Andy: 49:10

The big

Mike: 49:11

I think we talked about opening up a sub shop, was the

Sean: 49:15

wide doors on the clubhouse? Wide doors.

Andy: 49:19

So you have never, you've never ridden the Harry Potter ride then?

Mike: 49:22

I never rode the, uh, the big one, the one that like flips you upside down and

Andy: 49:26

Well, then I can only tell you you're not really missing that much.

Mike: 49:28

That's good. I'm happy. I, also didn't like the Harry Potter Universe anyways, so I was like fuck it made me

Andy: 49:36

Oh, alright, well yeah, then you didn't miss anything. See, I was into it.

Sean: 49:39

So Fox sucks and the Harry Potter stuff is not your thing. You are burning your career to the ground right now.

Mike: 49:47

I know, I want to play young Hagrid or whatever the fuck

Andy: 49:51

He's got those, he doesn't, he doesn't care. He's got a young Hagrid. Oh, let's pitch it tomorrow, guys. I'm in. Why does he not have no

Mike: 50:01

Ehhaha That's what it

Andy: 50:04

like he's from Boston?

Mike: 50:05

think that's

Andy: 50:07

mass whole Hagrid. All right, why don't we talk once again about The Simpsons. Sean,

Sean: 50:19

Simpsons Roasting on an Open Fire is the name of the pilot written by Mimi Pond who wrote the pilot and then never wrote another episode of The Simpsons. she was never asked to be part of the writer's room, like it was, it was early on and, and they hadn't hired a full staff yet and she ended up not getting hired and she later felt that, uh, or people told her that that was because there were people involved early on who didn't want to have a woman in the writer's room, so, that's just an interesting thing. Um,

Andy: 50:55

shy any female writer at this point? Do we know?

Sean: 50:59

maybe just shy one, which was her. I don't know about the other writers in the writer's room.

Andy: 51:04

that's, that's, that's an interesting, uh, interesting issue.

Sean: 51:08

anyway, we come in on, the parents driving on their way to, uh, a Christmas pageant. They go to see Bart and Lisa perform. they both have unique performances. Lisa. Oh, one thing I wanted to mention is that when they walk into the space. they walk past a sign for the Christmas pageant, which is both misspelled and has the local paper already having given the show three and a half stars. So it's not great. And that's one of the things I love about animation is maybe that joke was in the script, maybe not, but there's so much stuff that gets added in later of like tiny quick jokes that you have to pay attention for. You know,

Andy: 51:53

That being said, there's a handful of really fantastic jokes in this pilot. It is interesting how, sort of joke lite, the Simpsons, which was such a rat a tat, like, killer machine of jokes, That you're sort of like, Oh, what's it going to be? What's the joke going to be? And then they'll keep going and be like, no, I guess no, no joke there.

Mike: 52:16

They they were saying at one point it was like, they were like three jokes per page and then it became like three jokes per sentence basically, like, ha, ha, ha, ha,

Andy: 52:27

yeah, that sounds accurate.

Sean: 52:28

Uh, so Lisa juggles fire and performs in the, in the, in the pageant. Uh, Bart, of course, sing, you know, they're very excited to see Bart singing, but of course he's singing completely the wrong words. The, the Batman smells version of Jingle Bell. Robin

Mike: 52:45

I do think blue, like, I remember singing Christmas carols that year and like, going to a nursing home and singing Christmas carols cause I, my life was also like that first season of the Simpsons apparently. But like singing the like Batmobile. Lost his wheels and the Joker got away.

Sean: 53:01

laid an egg. Yeah, Yeah. There's different versions that have been floating around

Mike: 53:06

I think the Simpsons only helps, you know, like really, I feel like the, parody versions really shot up after this episode. I feel like,

Andy: 53:14

Yeah, and I think that's, that's an example of, it's interesting to track, even from the early shorts and, and through to this, to this episode, which characters sort of are there, like, oh, that's that character, that is, that is what that character became, that's what that character always was, and like, Bart doing that is definitely on topic, like, that's who he is, he has Icarumba in this pilot, um, Uh, so, there's a couple of things that he's, but I feel like Homer still feels a bit off to me in this pilot. The

Mike: 53:51

He's still very Walter Matthau y at this point.

Andy: 53:54

yes. I'm a big fan of Walter Matthau. I would have no problem with him being Walter Matthau. But, uh, you know, when you're expecting Homer Simpson, it can throw you off. Skinner is there immediately.

Mike: 54:04

Oh, I was gonna say, it's kind of a testament to Dan Castellaneta being so good that it was like, oh, he played this character this one way and then like, Homer eventually just is like a completely different character. and a different voice basically.

Andy: 54:16

wonder if to a certain degree, just because, Cartwright and Yearly Smith are, that's their voices. The rhythm of the show is so fast, eventually. I wonder if there was just an element of like, he had to adjust to the rhythm and later Homer can speak faster. Whereas if it's built in your rhythm to be like, what do you mean boy? It's just like, it's going to slow everything down. So I wonder if it was just out of necessity he switched it.

Sean: 54:43

I also think there's an element for, I mean, certainly for, for live actors as well, but also especially for animation voiceover stuff where you start to go, what is making this character interesting or entertaining? And how do I accentuate that?

Andy: 54:59

to skip ahead, that's the other interesting thing to track. The biggest one being, Homer is dumb in this pilot, but he's not a fraction as dumb as he will like later become. And like, even when he's. checking the, just to sort of skip ahead when he's at work and he's checking the dials, he misses one that says danger and is blinking and he sort of, but the fact that he's even up on his feet with a, with a pad doing anything at work as opposed to just sleeping or eating is astonishing.

Mike: 55:34

Yeah. Yeah, it, it's funny cause I mean like when he learns to be Santa too, also like one of the only people not getting it in the entire room, but still later on he's just a completely different level of dumb guy. That's like, you don't know how he, how he functions. You get how this character functions in some sort of real world, but later on it's, that, that goes out the window.

Andy: 55:58

which is as Sean says like that's classic sitcom of like, oh this works the writers You know that this rhythm works for this character this kind of jokes works as this character So if you have a character that's a you know Woody or a coach by the end of the run that character is gonna be like ten times more dumb than he started because You will have perfected it. You know, it always works. You have to keep heightening and doing things that are unexpected So if you're dumb, you're gonna get

Sean: 56:26

the things, it's one of the things I have trouble with sometimes with sitcoms where, like good sitcoms, where the thing that works for the character by the time you get to season six or season seven of the show, the character has become almost a parody of themselves instead of an actually fully realized character. Um, obviously that didn't happen here because that is the fun of Homer, but it is a, it is a thing.

Andy: 56:53

I'm going to be very dumb by the end of this podcast, you know, just to play to

Sean: 56:58

you're giving yourself a little bit too much credit there. Um,

Andy: 57:02

I, am I playing it too heightened already guys? Are we giving ourselves nowhere to go?

Sean: 57:08

so they're in the living room.

Andy: 57:09

I apologize. Just to go back for one second, just to the Christmas show. Uh, one other, one other person that we, I think we see a snippet of, I'm not certain it's the character because the characterization is so different is where Ralph Wiggum, who

Mike: 57:22

has a completely different voice.

Andy: 57:24

he has a completely different voice, and once again, they're not playing him like, you know, Al Wiggum is maybe one of the few characters that's dumber than Homer, and more out in space, But there's also a weird moment where he's sort of, they have like, well, now these are Santa Claus's from around the world, and he's like, I am a hostess. It's, uh, Hosashi, a Japanese priest who acts like Santa Claus. I have eyes in the back of my head, he turns around, and it's sort of a googly eyes. And there are a lot of weird moments like this, where the audience of parents gasps at the googly eyes. And I was kind of like, are they supposed to be actually surprised? Like this was a good effect? and I couldn't figure out like, well, what are the, like, this went through a lot of different hands for them to draw it and then, you know, edit it together and say, okay, this works. Like, what do you think they were thinking for that beat?

Mike: 58:14

my, my thought is that I mean, just with that character, it is like, we don't even know what this character is. And then I feel like his, his turn to being a dumb character was like instant. It's like, like, you know what I mean? Like, This is just a background character that could be any character at all. It's like a a student at Springfield. And then eventually they were like, when it came to story, they're like, we gotta use this guy and he's like a little dummy and he's Ralph Wiggum's kid or whatever, which maybe they knew in the first episode, but yeah, that robot beat stands out because you're also like. This is Ralph delivering this performance. I don't really get, like, what this is, and why they're even really shocked by it, and why they're, they're kind of shocked by Lisa's, which, watching it, I'm like, it is dated, it wouldn't fly today, if

Andy: 58:56

sure,

Mike: 58:57

would be, you would be, shocked in a different way. But I, I, I think, I think honestly, it's just that sort of thing of like, here's a stock character doing a boring factoid about Christmas. I don't, I don't even think they're thinking about the minor characters too deep. I mean, you see Milhouse later too, and Milhouse is like, I dare you to, like. Pull Santa's beard off Bart. You know what I mean? Like he just is like kind of like a Doofus friend that's like trying to like where Milhouse eventually is a boy who's afraid of trouble I feel

Andy: 59:24

That's, that's true. Although the voice I think is there for Milhouse. That's

Mike: 59:28

the voice is there she does it a little bit It's like a little bit different, but it is it is it is the same. Yeah

Andy: 59:33

Yeah,

Sean: 59:33

I also think there's an element in a pilot like this where I mean, obviously, the Simpsons is such a fully developed world eventually with so many characters that we know so well, and I think when you're doing a pilot, it's more like we need something to serve this moment as opposed to, here is a thing we already have, which will serve this moment. Here's a character we already have. You know, so you can really start to nail that stuff down.

Mike: 1:00:03

yeah, I want, it's, a sort of thing of like Sherry and Terry who are like in Lisa's grade, which they do use even later on, but like, there's like weird characters in this first season, like Nelson has two little bully friends that they like never use really much ever again, and I don't know if it's just that sort of thing of like Oh, this, person, like voice Ralph Wiggum. And it is, it's something more than like another, just a stock character. That's just kind of a nothing, you know, and, I don't know why the characters that stuck around did, because like, there seems to be no real answer to any of it. outside of the Simpsons family, you're just like, you don't know who any of them are yet. like Ralph and Milhouse, like, I guess have speaking roles. is the only

Andy: 1:00:45

well, I wonder if it's just sort of the dynamics of the show. So many characters are introduced in this pilot that then later stuck, which is shocking. And to me it's shocking on a couple of different levels. One, it's shocking on a level of, from a pilot perspective, I would have thought that they would have demanded, Oh, you have all these characters, you have, you know, Barney, but let's hear more about Barney. Let's whatever. And it's like, no, Barney comes in, he's the drunk, they establish the character and then they move on and then they bring it back, you know, later in the show, but it's like. You don't need any more information about Barney and the characters that you don't get more information about you just move on from and I think over time They keep on with that pattern Using people when it serves them comedically and like with Milhouse. I think it's like at a certain point It's like well Bart. I would guess Bart is the bad boy. He's the mischief maker so we can't have Milhouse just be coming in as another mischief maker all the time. So what if we break the other way with him? I think is the way those decisions happen.

Mike: 1:01:47

but it is, it is strange to me that who they decided to, and maybe it's just that sort of thing of like, this animation design looks more interesting. I don't, you know

Sean: 1:01:54

I think that's a big part of it. Yeah. Like who, who do we have that we can use and can we do more with that design? Because that's a big deal to design a character like that, you know? And it's hard to come up with di that man, I mean, obviously they did it for years and years and they came up with a million different looks, but. It's not simple to just go, well, let's make it a different thing. You know,

Mike: 1:02:15

that's wild. and they admit, you know, when they, when like, I've heard them talking about like background characters, like that one looks like shit, You know, they're like plenty of them that look horrible and are like, they're wearing a shirt that's the same as their skin tone. And it's like, they look horrible, but yeah, like Milhouse early on. I know Milhouse started in a Butterfingers commercial. That's how Pamela got that. Got the role, was, Butterfingers commercial with Bart and I think before the show came out and then she, and then she voiced it on the show. So

Andy: 1:02:45

That's, that's interesting. He started in the, the Butter Because I remember the Butterfinger commercial. And that's where, that's where that character started. That's amazing.

Mike: 1:02:54

I believe so, but he talks in the pilot, but I just, I just watched Pamela made a a documentary and she, she talked about that's how she got the job was through this Butterfingers commercial. So

Andy: 1:03:05

So she was a commercial actor. And then

Mike: 1:03:07

think she did every, she did voiceover and she was an actress and everything. Yeah,

Andy: 1:03:11

gauche, I wonder, if you're like that level of character in The Simpsons, and I assume she does other characters in The Simpsons, after, after 35 seasons, like, you can't keep escalating everybody's paychecks. Like, you gotta stick to this, so I wonder what that, to be gauche, what the, what the paycheck is on that one.

Mike: 1:03:32

there's crazy things just watching the pilot and everything. seeing Lorena Adamson's name come up and that's the person who hired me there. You know what I mean? I'm like, Oh, well, she was here on the pilot of this. And I mean, there's so many other people, uh, you know, Al Jean and Mike Reese were, I think there in the, in the first year and. So many of these people that still, still work at the show, which is crazy.

Andy: 1:03:52

Did you ever get to do a voice mic?

Mike: 1:03:54

I did. I did a, I was a Boston guy when Selman wrote a great Boston episode. I was like a guy in a bar with Homer and like, I was like, what's up, Homer? Like that was

Andy: 1:04:04

That's fantastic!

Mike: 1:04:05

was great. Yeah.

Andy: 1:04:07

You really, as a complete, uh, non entity, Mike, you have lived such a fantastic, being in the Forever War, getting to be an action hero, you did a voice on the Simpsons, this is fantastic.

Mike: 1:04:21

Selman, I mean, I, I had worked there for four years and, and I think assistance. I was Maybe come and go quicker than that, usually, but I was a good chunk of time there with the guys who have, are a lot of them who are still there and are great. And Selman, he drew Weiger and I, our likeness into an episode. There was like a podcast episode where Kent Brockman is like, yeah. there's this scene where there's all podcasters and Nick and I are, are in it,

Andy: 1:04:46

did, did Nick get to do his voice?

Mike: 1:04:48

no, we didn't, we didn't speak in that one as, uh, as ourselves, We didn't speak, but it was still, it was cool.

Andy: 1:04:53

It's fantastic.

Mike: 1:04:54

Yeah. I love that place. I mean, like it is. It is crazy and I feel like everyone who works there, it's like that, you know, you bond over the fact that you worked there, but, and, you know, I was there in the seasons that weren't transformative for the world or whatever, but it still was a great place to work and there's so many funny people and talented people that work

Sean: 1:05:12

Well, it's an institution. You're part of something that is gigantic, you

Mike: 1:05:17

loved it. I don't even know if they do the table reads anymore and I don't know if you guys would ever want to go to one, but they are, they are, like,

Andy: 1:05:23

I don't think Sean would. Sean

Sean: 1:05:25

I certainly don't want to go to the same one Andy is at. Why

Andy: 1:05:31

All we do when we're in a, when an important business situation together is trying to tear each other down in our heads. That makes us more powerful.

Sean: 1:05:38

did you take the potato chips from the table? Put them back.

Andy: 1:05:42

Stop, stop criticizing me in front of these big wigs.

Sean: 1:05:45

They can hear you and none of them are wearing wigs except that guy.

Mike: 1:05:49

I know which one you mean. Um, it is even, even going in, like, cause I would do the table reads and you and the other PA, I was a writer's PA, you and the other PA would switch off between who would like be in the room for the table read. And I was a fan of the show, so I always loved. Being in there for the table reads. And it was like, it was, it was, it was always great to just see them like read the script out loud and perform it. It was all, it was always funny, you know, like they always did such a great job.

Sean: 1:06:18

did Ewan, enjoy being in the room for the, table reads?

Mike: 1:06:21

Did who?

Sean: 1:06:22

Ewan?

Mike: 1:06:24

Ewan?

Andy: 1:06:25

I'm not, um, I don't get this joke either. Let's see where it goes.

Mike: 1:06:28

no, you, no, you, Ewan was tricky in the table reads. He seemed, the table reads were early and you know how Ewan was in the morning. He's not a morning guy, so

Sean: 1:06:37

he doesn't wake up.

Andy: 1:06:38

this is so generous of you, Mitch. I really appreciate it. Do you want, do you want to give us, do you want to give us an overview on that one, Conroy?

Sean: 1:06:45

I just misheard something. What was the other PA's name?

Mike: 1:06:51

Oh, the other PA, um, there was a couple, Eliza Hooper, who was great. who was a friend of mine and there was one before who I, who I didn't get along with. Some

Sean: 1:06:59

So you were, you were just saying you and the other PA.

Andy: 1:07:06

Is this the

Mike: 1:07:07

you and, you and, uh, you and the other PA?

Andy: 1:07:09

is this the kind of crackerjack podcasting you, uh, you're used to?

Mike: 1:07:14

It's funnier than me and Nick are just boringly talking about like the fries are too salty. other PA actually almost. I'll tell, Hey, I'll give some dirt

Andy: 1:07:21

oh, this is exciting.

Mike: 1:07:23

I almost got fired from the show because I worked with another PA and she did not like right out the gate, did not like me. And I was like, what is this person's deal? I think maybe she thought it was like a competitive environment, even though she didn't watch the show at all, but when she got there, a very strange person. And so. There was like, the table reads would come out, and there's prep for the table reads, you have to mail a script to all the actors and highlight all the lines,

Andy: 1:07:48

Uh huh. That really, that really dates the time.

Mike: 1:07:51

yeah, you highlight all the, I mean, you're right, I I don't, I doubt that, Oh, maybe some of them still do

Andy: 1:07:57

I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes people still deliver,

Mike: 1:07:59

was all this stuff you had to do and I was doing all of it and then I was like, when the script comes out, I'm gonna bring the script to the script office to get, to get it like copied. And I'm gonna tell, I was gonna say to her like, Hey, can you start highlighting lines? Cause she hadn't done anything. And then the script came out and she started printing the script on the xx. And I was like, she, cause she was gonna disappear for like an hour. I knew what was gonna happen. And she got the script and I was like. I was like, Hey, I'm gonna bring the script to the script department. And she like, didn't pay attention to me. And she was like, intentionally not saying anything. It was crazy. And then she got in the cart. And I was like, Hey, and I stood in front of the car. I was like, Hey, we have to highlight the script. And I did everything else. And then she was like, fuck you. Get the fuck out of the way. I Started swearing at me. And I was like, Oh man. And then I got a call from my boss, who's Lorena Adamson, and Lorena is like, she was like, blank, just told me that you started swearing at her and telling her to, to, and I was like, I didn't swear at her, and she was like, I'm going to have to fire you. I was like, I didn't swear at her, I swear to God. And then, A Simpsons writer who has since, who has also since passed away went into her office and was like, I saw the whole thing. She was swearing at Mike and Mike looked like he was going to cry, which Lorena also was happy to say to me. And then she said to her,

Andy: 1:09:20

no, that's this story is that her story isn't right. He wasn't being aggressive. He was being completely emasculated.

Mike: 1:09:27

I was, I was completely emasculated. And then they, and they said to her, like, either I have to fire you or you get a, you have to resign. And she, and she, she quit. So that was the end of, a, Which was crazy. It was a crazy thing. Look, I'm hard to work with, I know that, but I don't

Andy: 1:09:42

And that lady became Shonda Rhimes.

Mike: 1:09:45

Sorry for my boring, this is a

Andy: 1:09:47

No, I love it! I love all the inside scoop. No, I'm so happy that we got all these actual Simpsons stories. I thought it was just

Mike: 1:09:54

Wilmore, Larry Wilmore's brother was passed away. Great guy. Uh, he, uh, he was the one who, who stood up for me.

Andy: 1:10:00

That's so

Sean: 1:10:00

it's also, It's also, like In, in the TV writer world, I have never worked as a PA or any of that kind of stuff. And I've always dealt with those people, but I also enjoy hearing about all the drama that goes on among everybody. Cause you know, obviously there's drama among the writers too, but it's just funny that at every level, there's all kinds of stuff that goes

Andy: 1:10:23

It's a high pressure business.

Mike: 1:10:25

It's a It is. It's stressful. I mean like it is stressful. and I feel like it becomes stressful just because like you want to leave and that's probably the same thing with the writers too. It's like, I want to get out of here, even though it is in a way a dream job. You know what I mean? Like I did love doing it too.

Andy: 1:10:39

Yeah. Well, that's the thing. It's like you're, you're trapped in this environment where there's always sort of a superior. The superior is under the pressure on their own. There's all this pressure from the outside to deliver this product. You each have your own wants as clearly that PA did of like what I want out of this situation where I want to go. And you feel like you're jockeying with other people, but also these people are your collaborators and you have to. You know, play nice with everybody and, and help. It's just, it's a lot of dynamics at once.

Sean: 1:11:09

and there's also an element, I think, of everybody being like, if they would only do it the way that I think they should do it, all of this would work so much better.

Andy: 1:11:17

Right,

Mike: 1:11:18

which I should give like, that's, I was probably as guilty of that as she was, I'm sure, but it is, A person who just like, did not like talking to me and I didn't like talking to them either, but I think this is a difference is like when we were there, it was a well oiled machine, like I said, and there is like, you see old photos of when Conan worked there or whatever. And you're like, Oh, it looks like they like, we're like having more fun. And, they were, you know, having drinks and hanging out late and stuff like that, which I

Andy: 1:11:45

That that's how I felt even when I worked at Kona.

Mike: 1:11:48

yeah.

Andy: 1:11:49

It's like, nah, when was it fun?

Mike: 1:11:52

Maybe it just is never fun. Maybe that is the,

Andy: 1:11:55

I think it's, I think there's there's a, there's a condition of basically like, oh, but before that's when it was great.

Mike: 1:12:03

Yeah.

Andy: 1:12:03

shall we get back into the, uh, the, the story itself?

Sean: 1:12:08

So we're in the living room and Marge is writing her Christmas letter and everybody is saying what they want for Christmas. Uh, Lisa wants a pony, Bart wants a tattoo.

Andy: 1:12:18

And even in that, I would say, uh, Those are the first two, like, legitimate jokes, I would say, of like, Marge basically saying, Lacey, you've asked for a pony for three years, I've told you, it can't fit into Santa's sleigh, can't you take a hint? Like, that they're like, play, she's playing the, the mythology of Santa's sleigh, and is just basically like, we're on the same page here, can you just drop this? I

Mike: 1:12:41

a great joke there too of um, when she's like reading the note aloud and she's like, and Bart, well, we love Bart. There's nothing really good to

Andy: 1:12:50

Right. Can't think of a good thing. Yeah. And then Bart asking for the tattoo is like, to me, of the characters seems very on game. Lisa and Bart seem to me to be the most, like, nailed down, like, what they will always be personalities.

Mike: 1:13:06

Bart does get dumber too, I feel like. I Like a, like a, I mean he is just like a little troublemaker here, but him and Homer, he like almost starts to match Homer a little bit in

Andy: 1:13:15

I think you're right. Yeah.

Sean: 1:13:17

so Marge's sister calls and they're, they're gonna come over for Christmas Eve. So that's definitely one thing that's gonna happen, later in the episode. They go outside to see that Homer has put lights on the house and of course he has not done. a particularly good job, especially compared to their next door neighbor, Flanders, who has done an amazing job.

Andy: 1:13:37

And is, again, that's a character that's, uh, he's, obviously, they don't, they haven't, that's a fraction of what Flanders will become, but I was impressed that even in a, in a pilot, the game of Flanders being this perfect neighbor that immediately causes jealousy and antagonism from Homer. As a side character is pretty impressive. There's so many sure footed moves in this pilot establishing the world. which of course, you know, it makes sense. I don't, I don't know if it's like when you did this, we did such a good job on this. It's going to last 35 seasons, but, uh, it's so, it's very impressive in many ways.

Mike: 1:14:18

Yeah.

Sean: 1:14:19

Um, so they're going to go Christmas shopping. Marge gives Homer the money jar from her hair. That's where she hides it. And, uh, they go to the mall. and then we see Bart at the tattoo parlor as he fantasizes about getting a mother tattoo and how his mother will be so happy that he has this tattoo. Uh, the guy asked him how old he is.

Andy: 1:14:43

this is a good bit.

Sean: 1:14:44

Yeah, and he says, he says he's old enough and the guy just says, get in the chair. Uh, so he's going to

Andy: 1:14:50

this is 21, sir. Get in the chair.

Sean: 1:14:53

and then we, and then we go to Homer's workplace and this is the first time we don't even see him, but it's the first time we hear Mr. Burns who tells them they won't be, getting their Christmas bonus this

Andy: 1:15:04

I think we do see him, actually. I think we briefly, yeah,

Sean: 1:15:07

I wasn't, I wasn't watching it. I actually listened to the whole thing.

Andy: 1:15:11

Sean, that's terrible. It's not very responsible. It's, you're supposed to be breaking down the pilot. This is an animation pilot.

Sean: 1:15:17

I read the cliff notes. Um,

Andy: 1:15:20

Yeah, and

Sean: 1:15:20

but whatever the case, he says they're not getting the Christmas bonus. So it's a problem.

Andy: 1:15:24

Which is, again, that's on game, obviously, for Mr. Burns, but to me that's like, for the crazy, heightened, you know, spoiler alert, character that later blots out the sun, level supervillain, no Christmas bonus, is very

Mike: 1:15:42

a little bit different too. It's like, uh, it's kind of like more just old man y or something like, I mean, it still sounds like Mr. Burns a little bit, but he he really goes into like the evil villain voice later on. I feel like.

Sean: 1:15:55

So, Homer figures out that he's not getting his Christmas bonus, but at least they still have the money jar, so it's okay they'll be able to get people stuff for Christmas, then we go back to the mall and Marge has realized that Bart is missing finds him as he's getting a tattoo on his arm that the guy has gotten as far as writing moth uh, they go to see somebody who says the tattoo can be removed But it's gonna it must be paid in cash and Marge realizes she has to pay All the money in the money jar and she's happy that Homer will get his Christmas bonus because at least they'll still be able to have Christmas. So we have sort of a reverse gift of the Magi going on here where they, neither of them is going to have the thing that the other one, uh, most wants.

Mike: 1:16:39

I really like the noises that the laser machine makes, It, like does remind me kind of of later Simpsons, because it is like, uh, It's kind of like a big dumb joke that he's getting zapped by like a James Bond type laser that's like making a very Simpsons like humming noise that like they use forever.

Andy: 1:16:57

and that's, of course, the first time he says I carumba. Although, I wonder if that predated in the shorts. I wonder how many. And that's another thing that they obviously had the jump on, on the, even going into this episode, is like, you know, you had a test run to kind of get a feel for what was working originally with all these little shorts.

Mike: 1:17:19

Yeah,

Sean: 1:17:20

so then we, then we come back home and we find out that they both find out that the other one has lost all their money, so they're going to have to, cancel Christmas. but instead of telling Marge that he has, that he doesn't have the Christmas bonus coming, Homer says, I'm going to do the Christmas shopping this year. So now he has to figure out how to get Christmas presents for

Mike: 1:17:40

Homer is so sweet. In the, in this episode, it is like such a, it's not his fault. He's in this predicament. And he's like, doesn't want to let his family down. He's like a really sweet man. it's,

Andy: 1:17:51

Well, this is the thing. I guess we kind of already addressed it a little bit, but it is very interesting that I think even compared most, Simpsons episodes from my memory, even in the first season, That, it's just so, the whole episode is sort of the underpinnings are so sweet. and even the, and the act of, of Homer outside the house, just sad. There's no joke. It's just like, Oh, I'm going to let my family down sadness. And that's it. And you're going to commercial. And I'm like, this is crazy that it's this treacly and sweet. And so I guess my question. To you guys, from the perspective of just a pilot, like you're launching the show, do you think this pilot was more effective as a launching point for The Simpsons because it was so much sweeter, to the point of maybe too sweet, than the later episodes?

Sean: 1:18:41

Right. He says in this scene, I love you. I don't deserve you. And I do think because everybody is so much more heightened in terms of their weirdness later on, it's important to establish those relationships early. So, yeah, I do think it's important, you know,

Andy: 1:18:59

Yeah.

Mike: 1:19:00

and I do think it sets the tone of, I think, as crazy and silly as the Simpsons got, and I mean, this is I think why story is so important to them, like, underneath all of it, it is still like, Homer is still like a sweet guy, and it is, like this family that has love for each other. So I think that that, what it evolved to obviously is different, but I do think it's important that it started that way.

Andy: 1:19:21

Yeah, and I think if you go back to as we were discussing, that the pilot that sort of, that it was tossed, It did not have that tone in any way. And, uh, is if anything, it had the reverse. So this really does set you up to go much farther with the characters comedically, because you have that by that, like, well, they love each other.

Sean: 1:19:40

So Homer's shopping, he's getting the cheapest things he can find, he runs into Flanders, who is heavily loaded with gifts. They, they knock each other over. Flanders isn't sure which ones are his and which ones are Homer's. And of course they're all his, so, we see all that.

Andy: 1:20:00

So

Sean: 1:20:00

Homer, yeah, it's funny. Homer goes to Moe's to drown his sorrows. Which is where he learns that Barney is working as a mall Santa, and they will hire basically anybody to do that.

Andy: 1:20:14

And I think this is where I really started to get astounded, not having seen this pilot in a long time. With how much of the world is in place, right, in this first pilot. But that Barney is exactly what Barney will become. Moe is not what Moe will become, other than the voice and the way he's drawn.

Mike: 1:20:33

It is funny what he is at this point. He's like, hiya homa. He is just like a helpful bartender, man.

Andy: 1:20:39

Right? Those are A maniac loser? but, the fact that it's even set up it's like intuitively they were like, oh, we need a place that's outside the home. It probably would be, he'd be a drinker. Well, you got to have the drunk. All right, you have the bartender. It's just like they're making logical organic choices and as a result, you're, you're building the building blocks for, for what you will need story wise for 35 seasons. It's crazy to think of. Building a pilot to have that much room to grow and succeed.

Mike: 1:21:15

I was gonna say they're smart. They were smart guys. And I'm like, a lot of them still working over there. They're, They are smart guys. They, it's, it's crazy.

Andy: 1:21:23

I mean, this is why my pilot, one guy trapped in a room did just didn't seem to have legs.

Mike: 1:21:29

Ha ha ha. Ha

Sean: 1:21:31

didn't even have dialogue. It was very

Andy: 1:21:33

No. Yeah. And they, and they, the network kept pushing me. I don't know how I sold it, but the network kept pushing me, Hey, can you at least give him a phone or some kind of screen where you can talk to me? And I said, no, that undermines the concept.

Sean: 1:21:44

He even lived next door to a bar, but it was an abandoned bar that nobody ever went to or lived in.

Andy: 1:21:49

he would walk in, and then it would be empty, and then he would sort of step on a nail or something, whatever happened that week, and then he would go back in and just tend to his wound.

Mike: 1:21:58

Silently yell, no noise coming out of his mouth. Ha ha

Andy: 1:22:02

That's right, Harold Lloyd style.

Mike: 1:22:04

ha ha

Sean: 1:22:05

I love Harold Lloyd. Uh, so, Homer interviews and gets gets put in the training program to be a Santa Claus.

Mike: 1:22:14

Hmm.

Andy: 1:22:14

Right,

Sean: 1:22:15

It's a fun scene. He has to learn how to say ho ho ho, he has to remember the names of the reindeer. Yeah,

Mike: 1:22:21

Oh, yeah, that's, that's what he really fails at, right, Sean, is the, he gets all the, he

Andy: 1:22:26

Nixon, Comet, Cupid, and Donna Dixon, he

Sean: 1:22:29

Donna Dixon is the last reindeer. now let me ask you this, cause I, I am not nearly as familiar with the Simpsons Certainly not The Simpsons Ride, but also The Simpsons Show, as you guys are. I mean, I've certainly watched it time after time over the years, but I am not, you know, I haven't paid a lot of attention to it. Does the teacher of the Santa Claus Workshop ever come back?

Andy: 1:22:51

Do

Mike: 1:22:51

guy may be. He does come back in some way, I'm not sure if I just have watched the pilot so many

Sean: 1:22:57

Right. I'm only asking because it, as I was watching it, it felt very inorganic to me as opposed to all the other characters we were seeing where it was like, let's just have Phil do his funny voice, the German accent that he does and make that guy, the guy who's running the workshop as opposed to here's a purpose and a reason and a fun thing about this character, which I, Which I always enjoy seeing in a pilot where it's like, is this a big deal or is it not a big deal?

Mike: 1:23:30

I've found, this character and on the Simpsons Wiki. And he is,

Sean: 1:23:39

the biggest character on the show

Mike: 1:23:41

the best, he's the biggest character on the

Andy: 1:23:42

He's in the family? Is he a Simpson?

Mike: 1:23:45

He is, uh, he is, he's called the hypnotist. and so he's, he's a hypnotist and a mall Santa trainer. Uh, this list, just two episodes. And so he is in, the, uh, Homer at the bat episode, apparently he's a, he's also, which I'm trying to think of what the bit is and I feel like I should know it. but

Sean: 1:24:02

probably involves hypnotism, right?

Mike: 1:24:04

I think, Oh yes. He's hypnotizing Roger Clemens and to think he's a chick into thinking he's a chicken. I don't know if you remember that,

Andy: 1:24:12

Yes, I do remember that. Yeah, it's interesting. So it's just sort of, they threw him in and then they're like, Hey, let's bring back, probably, I would guess it's more, well, maybe the accent, and then the character design. Um, but it is interesting that, like, I hear what Sean's saying, that like, later in the Simpsons, they'll sort of have a side trip. Some plot side trip and they'll go like well, let's make this, you know Professor Frank the the Jerry Lewis scientist or or let's make this. Dr Nick or you know, whatever they'll and it'll just like everything will stop because then that's a different bit that they're playing And that's what this does kind of feel like. Yeah,

Mike: 1:24:55

I kind of, enjoyed him. He should be around more often. I feel like

Andy: 1:24:58

I Agree, you feel like they haven't used him enough in these 35 seasons

Mike: 1:25:02

I don't think so.

Sean: 1:25:04

You know who, you know, who was really pushing for him to be used a lot was the PA who you got fired. So that's

Mike: 1:25:10

ha ha ha! that's not, I did not get her fired. Also. I will say, Sean, if you had, if you had only seen the Simpsons, I want to see someone who's only seen, has seen the Simpsons pilot, and then the second thing they see is the ride, it would be interesting to see just how insane. Insanely Insanely different, the ride is, and

Sean: 1:25:31

Okay, So then we go back to the house and the, and the sisters are there. Marge's sisters are there and they are very negative about what's going on and where Homer is and, and why he's not there. they're upset that there's no tree. Meanwhile, Homer. Has made his way out of town and is chopping down a tree to bring back to the house Gets chased by dogs and shotguns.

Mike: 1:25:52

the bit basically similar to National Lampoon's Vacation, which I guess did it after this,

Andy: 1:25:58

Oh, interesting.

Mike: 1:26:00

a very similar bit,

Andy: 1:26:01

Yeah, It's true. and there's like an animal in it, right? Some

Mike: 1:26:06

there's a squirrel in it later, that Julia Louise Dreyfus, I believe. which I feel like is probably a thing that has been done by a lot of places of chopping down a nearby tree.

Andy: 1:26:17

But I'm someone who always believes that there's just like Parallel thinking is certainly the argument for most things like this that happen, but if the timeline is such, and, or if you can kind of track like, Well, and I usually look at this at Star Trek because those, those are references that I'm like, Oh, I see that, and that tracks back to this was in this movie, so either Star Trek is stealing From the movie, the movie is stealing from Star Trek. And this is something that feels like the person who wrote national lampoons vacation is a Christmas vacation. would have seen this episode of the Simpsons,

Mike: 1:26:50

Sure, yeah. And probably was watching Christmas episodes and

Andy: 1:26:54

right? Yeah. That's an even, that's an even more on, on point.

Sean: 1:26:58

a lot of people are going to complain that we're stealing from Doughboys by just having Mitch here. So, you know,

Andy: 1:27:04

true. And also

Sean: 1:27:05

we gotta be ready for those emails.

Andy: 1:27:07

talk about what we've ordered. Um, the other thing that struck me about the tree bit is that I was thinking like they started to lean into. Kind of the Peanuts, uh, end result of, of, uh, going for a Christmas tree, which is that it's this pathetic tree. And, uh, and I was like, oh, they're not going to do exactly the same thing. And then they did a different thing that I think is a very clever spin, which is it's a stolen tree

Mike: 1:27:33

Yeah. And the tree, the

Andy: 1:27:35

with the bird house in it. It's really funny.

Sean: 1:27:38

Um, so then we see Homer working as a Santa. He is imparting lessons to the children who, ask him for things, for Christmas. And he's starving. Eats one of the kids doughnuts because he hasn't had any, any food. So that's, you know, we're starting to get who he is as a character. Uh, Bart and his friends are watching from above and one of the friends dares him to yank Homer's beard.

Mike: 1:28:01

Early Milhouse, is the early Milhouse,

Andy: 1:28:03

That's, yeah, that's where it's sort of interesting that it's, not who he became.

Sean: 1:28:07

And then we get to the death knell of culture, which is Bart says when he goes to Homer, he says, I'm Bart Simpson. Who the hell are you? So that's, that's, gonna

Andy: 1:28:20

And so the objection of America was you're teaching children to be disrespectful, I'm assuming.

Sean: 1:28:27

This was before we had presidential candidates who stood up giving campaign speeches going, fuck that bullshit, you know, So. it was, uh, it was still a time when there was sort of decorum and respect and yes, all that kind of stuff.

Mike: 1:28:43

And George H. W. Bush famously said like, I want people to stop being, more like the Simpsons, uh, less like the Simpsons and more like the Waltons, right? Wasn't there, he said some bullshit like that.

Sean: 1:28:55

don't remember that, but that totally makes sense.

Mike: 1:28:58

he said some line about like, uh, the families being less like the Simpsons. I think, I think it was maybe the Waltons. It was some, it was some shitty

Andy: 1:29:05

it seems like that's what it is. More like the Waltons and less like the Simpsons. it's

Mike: 1:29:09

is, yeah.

Andy: 1:29:10

Candidates never, candidates or presidents, never learned the lesson of like Like, don't, don't use TV as your, your reference point. You're going to lose. Like, it's, it's, bad for you. It was just like,

Mike: 1:29:24

And then like Bill Cl he was going up against the very cool

Sean: 1:29:27

sax playing. Yeah.

Mike: 1:29:29

Yeah. Was Arsenio on Fox? No. Right. It was, I don't think it, I don't think it was, but that's like, cause Bill Clinton was on Arsenio halls, right? He was, he came on Arsenio hall. I remember that. It felt like there was a huge culture shift that. Honestly kind of started with The Simpsons, but my parents were never, they were fine with me watching it, married with children,

Andy: 1:29:49

was on Fox

Mike: 1:29:51

it was, oh, alright, shit, so it was all Fox, married with children, which was on after The Simpsons, my mom never liked me watching, especially when I was younger, you know, she was like, that's, that was one step over the line

Andy: 1:30:03

Right. And I think probably that the Simpsons as with South Park, the reason it kind of caused a furor always is like You know, it's animation. So that's more likely to, pervert and distort the brain of a, of youngsters.

Sean: 1:30:16

Well, everybody thinks animation is just for kids by default, you know? and there is such a thing as adult animation. Not that the Simpsons is that it's sort of bridges the generations,

Andy: 1:30:26

me get it. You wrote for Mr. Pickles.

Sean: 1:30:30

that's adult animation. if you enjoy violence, gore, beheadings, spines being ripped out, um,

Andy: 1:30:38

As many

Sean: 1:30:38

No, I just used, it used to irritate me when I would say this is what the show is and people would be like, Oh, so you're writing a children's show, And I was like, take a look, it's not for children. Um, So he pulls off and recognizes, Homer and realizes that there's something going on here and Homer has to explain to him, that he needs to do this to get the money and Homer, and Bart says, you must really love us to have sunk so low.

Andy: 1:31:05

It's a very, so. It's incredibly, I mean, it's sweet to a shocking degree, and I guess that's my question to you as both a Simpsons insider and a longtime fan. Do you feel, Mitch, like that moment is indicative of what will, there is always sort of a moment mostly between Homer and Marge, there's sort of some sweet resolution. Do you feel like that moment is something that we will see? in great amounts later on. Cause it's like Bart just like is touched,

Mike: 1:31:37

yeah,

Andy: 1:31:38

supports his father and that's it.

Mike: 1:31:40

yeah, I feel like, you know, and later seasons, that sweetness does exist between Homer and Bart, which again, this is like, they're establishing their relationship here, but obviously Bart later on we'll do stuff that makes Homer want to kill him, especially as the show goes on, but even in the first season, I feel like there's stuff that Bart does that like drives him, but Bart is like a sweet kid at this point and kind of always is, he just kind of turns into more of like, they they lean into his being a little rebel, Asshole as time goes on. But here it's just, he is just being like a sweet, nice kid. It's,

Sean: 1:32:13

Although I would, I would argue that him saying, you must love, you must really love us to have sunk so low. He is still undercutting the sweetness of it by disparaging what Homer is doing. You know?

Andy: 1:32:26

That's fair. Yeah.

Sean: 1:32:28

like he's saying something nice and then going, by the way, you're, you're embarrassing us basically. Um,

Mike: 1:32:35

to quickly say, I don't know if any animation for four Children is good. I don't think there's any like, if it's specifically designed for children, I feel like it's probably bad, right? Like, all animation should be for, for anyone that could

Andy: 1:32:49

all audiences.

Mike: 1:32:50

well, no, it shouldn't be, that's not true. because I think there's some that should be for specifically for adults, but I feel like stuff that's like specifically for children sucks. Right. I don't, I can't think

Sean: 1:33:00

Well, I mean, it's not for you. So how do you know if it sucks?

Mike: 1:33:04

That's a good, point. But even like. My neighbor Totoro or Totoro, I'm like, that is like, maybe feels more like a children's movie, but that's for everyone. Right? Like they're

Andy: 1:33:14

true. It's also like to your point about the Miyazaki property. it's written with this complexity so that it appeals to everyone. And it's. has these deep, complex adult themes that a child can understand on an intuitive level. And so that's why it's just sort of the, the target. And I think comedically the, target. I think on The Simpsons, and I think, it hit it, is just like, the characters became so strong and their delivery system for jokes became so honed after a while, that just by the rhythm of jokes, even if you didn't know what the references were, you would understand that it was funny and it was high level comedy. And I think that's, that's that magical kind of crossover point between children and, which is what the, the Muppets were also.

Mike: 1:34:02

Oh yeah. Love those

Sean: 1:34:04

I, uh, I guess, just my main point is I wrote for, uh, Mr. Pickles. Um, so Homer and Bart go to get Homer's check. It's for 13 because they took out for Santa costume training sessions, all the things. So now

Andy: 1:34:22

the way, this is a, this is Nancy Cartwright as the person giving him the check again. And I, and I wonder, cause I feel like there was a few other moments like that, if not a lot in that first season where it's so obvious because Nancy Cartwright has one of the most distinct voices in television history, that is just like. No, you can't, you can't do the Henka's area thing. Like, you, you have to stay Bart. Because it's too obvious. And every once in a while, she'll pop up as another character. And early on, and then I think they finally stopped. Just like, just to have her do Bart.

Mike: 1:34:55

Yeah. She, she has like her like three, she sticks to her like big, which I think is

Andy: 1:35:00

Yeah, who

Mike: 1:35:01

and Nelson. She does Nelson. I used to highlight these. So I used to know all of them and she does Ralph Wiggum.

Andy: 1:35:07

Oh, does she? See, I did not give her credit. Ralph Wickham is a very different character.

Mike: 1:35:12

yeah,

Sean: 1:35:13

does she do the hypnotist, uh, Santa Claus trainer?

Andy: 1:35:17

It's your favorite

Mike: 1:35:17

but I'm going to say, I'm going to guess. Yes.

Andy: 1:35:19

Guys, should we start working on that spinoff?

Sean: 1:35:23

Um,

Andy: 1:35:24

to spin off the Simpsons least beloved character.

Sean: 1:35:29

Sometimes you gotta take a risk. This is Hollywood. Nobody knows

Andy: 1:35:32

No, you do the thing that nobody's thinking of.

Sean: 1:35:34

Mm hmm. so, again, Homer gets a brainstorm from what Barney is doing. Barney is going to gamble at the, the dog track, and Homer thinks that's a great idea. He can bet his 13. So him and Bart set off. To bet some money and win some money. and, I love the meta idea here of Bart saying if TV has, has taught me anything, it's that miracles always happen to poor kids at Christmas. which is a nice, a nice moment.

Andy: 1:36:04

what I also liked is that he, I think, and I remember watching this and then this is the thing that really. Uh, started to grab me now, obviously every, every show is just a parade of references, but to make references like that, because I remember early on in my career, I would put references that weren't even like deep cut references. They were just. what I perceive to be funny references to current television, and, people would shoot him down. And like Simpsons is one of the people that was the one of the properties that was the first, the first people that advanced it to, to Mitch's, you know, story of like, you had to go and get. Uh, was it, was it, what was it, magazines? What was the thing you got that had

Mike: 1:36:45

Oh,

Sean: 1:36:46

DVDs. It was back in the day of DVD shops.

Andy: 1:36:49

so, in that moment, he like rattles off the other Christmas episodes, cartoon Christmas episodes, Peanuts and Smurfs and all these ones. It's like, it's one thing I've learned from TV. It's that a miracle will always happen that will save people. Let's take this chance. And I love that it's woven in. To be a meta commentary on how the Simpsons is going to be different.

Sean: 1:37:11

And, talking about Homer's character becoming something different. This is a moment where Homer doesn't understand the Tiny Tim reference, which to me is like, I don't know, maybe I'm crazy, but I feel like that's just something that every person alive knows what that is. So the fact that he doesn't is pretty. Yeah, pretty dumb in that

Andy: 1:37:31

So you're saying he did see, I was arguing that maybe he didn't start that dumb. You're saying he'd started more

Sean: 1:37:36

no. I'm just saying in that particular moment there was a flash of how dumb he would eventually become. I think, you know, it's that thing of like still trying to figure out what

Andy: 1:37:46

How dumb to make

Sean: 1:37:47

the character. Yeah.

Mike: 1:37:48

also on the way, like when they're going to this racetrack, Homer's like, I can't believe I'm doing this. And you're like, why?

Sean: 1:37:55

is, yeah, this is what you would do, yeah.

Mike: 1:37:58

what you do.

Andy: 1:37:59

Go to the dog track again this week? I don't

Mike: 1:38:03

ha ha

Sean: 1:38:03

so Barney tells him to bet on Whirlwind, but they see a dog named Santa's Little Helper whose odds are 99 to 1. So this is going to be a big payday for Homer when he, when he wins, and he puts everything on it. and of course loses, unfortunately.

Andy: 1:38:20

The dog coming up, it doesn't even finish the race and they're waiting for it to finish it. It's a funny bit

Sean: 1:38:26

I

Andy: 1:38:26

like, Let's, we're gonna wait until it finishes. And it's like, ah, screw it.

Mike: 1:38:31

I'll forget it. I wrote that down. It's a great moment.

Sean: 1:38:34

it's such a funny, like, I don't know. there's something to me about that that's, that works every time when you, in animation, when something gets very still and you just see the character's eyes blinking and they're just waiting for something. Um,

Andy: 1:38:47

and it's because it's such a definitive, it's, it's just sort of, sort of such a clear comedic choice because in animation, you make a choice about what moves and doesn't move in every moment. The other, the other line I loved that was the callback, uh, that really stuck with me over time was Bart saying, it doesn't seem possible, but I guess TV has betrayed me. Uh, which to me is the kind of meta joke that I think this, that, that. That became bedrock for this show. That became the commentary on exactly what's going on in a meta way. That became what this show did better than anybody.

Sean: 1:39:22

mm

Mike: 1:39:23

I just want to give a shout out to I'll quit it when they keep touching Bart's tattoo And uh, of course, ho ho do they worked Do into that which I guess already at this point. They kind of knew that was a homework catchphrase. Uh, But there's a couple lines at the end here that are great And I'll when we get to them. because the ending is

Sean: 1:39:40

Well, just to go, just to go back to the out quitted thing, what I, what I think is so funny about that is that's such a specific style of like going like two extra repetitions of the thing and how annoying that is and that is just funny in and of itself every time,

Andy: 1:39:58

It goes, Lisa twice, then the, third one of, of just touching his wound. And then the third one is Maggie touching it. And so you think you're done. And then Homer comes in and puts his points at it. What's that? I'll quit it.

Sean: 1:40:12

Yeah.

Andy: 1:40:12

It's great.

Sean: 1:40:13

okay. So, come out and Barney did put his money on whirlwind and one. So he has a new girlfriend, which is what happens when you get a little bit of money. That definitely is a thing. Um,

Mike: 1:40:27

I

Sean: 1:40:28

Daria. Yeah. Yeah.

Andy: 1:40:30

Yeah. It was. Daria was later at the MTV show, right?

Sean: 1:40:35

That's what I assumed. Yeah. I assumed it was just a coincidence, Not a, not a reference.

Andy: 1:40:39

was 10 years later. It's way off. All, all of my past has become a blur.

Sean: 1:40:45

Well, no, I think, I think the, the story is that the people who created Daria were like, we need to name this character after the girlfriend in the pilot of simpsons who never showed up

Andy: 1:40:57

thinking, Sean. This one, I'm not sticking to my guns on

Sean: 1:41:00

i mean he clearly saw the pilot and was like, Oh, let's use that name. Uh,

Andy: 1:41:08

then there's an animal inside.

Sean: 1:41:09

Who So they see, they see Sam as a little helper being evicted into the night by his owner, trainer, whatever.

Mike: 1:41:17

A Dan, Castellaneta voice that's like, is too similar to Homer's here, the

Sean: 1:41:21

right.

Andy: 1:41:22

Yeah.

Sean: 1:41:22

and then the dog, comes to them and all of a sudden they have something to bring home for Christmas.

Andy: 1:41:27

Which is that, that is a side note is a very interesting, phenomena of. Cause I think Hank Azaria does another character, I don't remember which, does another character voice in this that feels too similar to Moe. And I do wonder if it's like, then they watch the pilot and like, oh, I didn't go far enough. That, like, did they learn that themselves? Were they directed into that?

Mike: 1:41:48

and I wonder if there's a lot of like, oh, don't have like a random one off character talking to Moe, or you know what I mean, like, there's some lessons learned there too, or whatever. It is fascinating, because it does feel like that, like you were saying with Nancy Cartwright, and then Homer happens here too, where it's like They're in like the same scene together, and you're like this feels weird for whatever reason. It's just too, they sound too alike. There's just a great line there where, Homer says he's a loser. He's pathetic. He's a Simpson.

Andy: 1:42:15

Yeah, and it's both sweet and a good sort of joke. And then at the very end, Oh, they also throw Grandpa in there! Grandpa Simpson is in there. already asleep, which is, you know, it's a, It's a first thought joke, but it's like, That, they find ways to heighten it, That becomes the bedrock of his character. and the last, uh, The joke that I, that I noted down was, was when they get the dog and they're all happy. his bar just throws off. And if he runs away, he'll be easy to catch! It's

Mike: 1:42:42

That's, I wrote that down. That's a great line.

Andy: 1:42:44

just a funny reference to him just losing

Mike: 1:42:47

the dog being slow.

Sean: 1:42:49

yeah. And then we're out of, we're out of the episode.

Mike: 1:42:51

Which is crazy enough, uh, uh, Santa's Little Helper origin story, but also a Snowball 2, or both of the Simpsons pets kind of have origin stories in this pilot episode, because they talk about how

Andy: 1:43:02

The other cat passed away. yeah. Right. so Mitch, uh, this is a good thing to confer with you about. Sean and I have, uh, we've had different variations on the episodes we've recorded thus far. And we've sort of struggled a little bit on, well, should we just do a ranking system? And kind of like, well, is that demeaning to the form and we're whatever. and then you had said you have your, you had a ranking system, for your, uh,

Mike: 1:43:27

We put it in first class or co which also wasn't, I mean like when we broke it down to it was like what is this out of like, five stars basically, it's what we, I guess like first class is like five stars or whatever and then, for ones we really liked we were like it's in the cockpit or something, but I don't know how,

Andy: 1:43:44

you get to fly the plane. You're the pilot. Uh,

Mike: 1:43:48

good, But I don't know, you know, people give movies star ratings. I, you know, I, I love this pilot and I, I think that the show becomes very different, but it's probably a nostalgia thing for me. But like you were saying, there's so much stuff that's established in this first half hour that sticks around for 35 years that it's so crazy to me. And it is for its time. I think it's really funny and it's really sweet. And the story is kind of simple, but it's nice. It's a nice story. So I, for me, it's like, it's not cheers level, but it's like, you know, a four or four and a half or something like that for me is, is where I would put it.

Andy: 1:44:23

four and a half first classes? That

Sean: 1:44:27

Four and a half cockpits.

Andy: 1:44:29

Oh, four and a half cockpits. Oh yeah, I mean, I would, uh, I would agree with you. It's sort of interesting. Judging this one because usually the ones we've sort of, covered thus far kind of even break either breaking the direction of this is insane. This is terrible. This is, kind of what it became like the freaks and geeks thing because freaks and geeks obviously only, only, you know, didn't finish the first season. It's kind of is, What it's going to be in the first episode. And there's so many amazing turns. This is a really fascinating thing in that it is a crude version of what it would later become, but there's so much world building in such an impressive way. So it's kind of like, if we have that rating system, then it's, like, well, you can't dispute that they were successful. They went 35 seasons. I also can say it was successful for me because I saw it and I think I might have been as a, as a, this is often the case with me as a cynical aspiring, you know, person who wanted to write and make either TV or film. I probably was like, yeah, this isn't cynical enough. They're pretending it's cynical, but it's not cynical enough. But I, there were enough jokes in it that I was like, this is really funny. And this is great. And it held me. So I have to say it was successful as a pilot. and it overwhelmed the flaws.

Sean: 1:45:44

I definitely didn't watch it at the time. I was, I was teaching junior high school at the time. So there was a lot of like buzz around. We weren't supposed to let the kids talk about it or say cowabunga. And, and I just found that hilarious because I was like, how does that even, who cares? You know? Um, and so I never watched it until much, much later, but I watched it again. Today, or at least I listened to it. I didn't actually look at it. Um, and I I had forgotten how sweet it was. Like I really, I found the ending very touching in a way, you know, which maybe if I was younger, I would be like, Oh, come on. But now I'm like, shithole. So You know, let's, let's have some good things where things work out, and especially as a, as a Christmas episode, it's like They're, overcoming adversity and finding love for the whole family. So as far as like, is it first class? Is it second class? Is it business class? Is it coach? Is it the cockpit? Is it the, the luggage rack underneath the plane? I'm going to give it, I'm going to give it the whole plane. It's the entire, it's the entire thing.

Mike: 1:46:55

you're right. is kind of, it's, it's shitty and great all at the same time. It's, it's, it, that's kind of, it's perfect. Perfect breakdown.

Andy: 1:47:03

I think that's fair. Um,

Mike: 1:47:05

plane too. Why not? I I also. there

Sean: 1:47:08

Parallel development, right there.

Mike: 1:47:10

ha ha

Andy: 1:47:11

I'm gonna give it the whole airport because of all the world building.

Mike: 1:47:14

shit. All right. In the original pilot, I didn't say this before, in the one that got, aborted there, the abortion one, the, uh,

Andy: 1:47:22

Stop saying

Mike: 1:47:23

is, Marge is 34, and which is like, I was like, fuck, she's 34, and then also Homer and her talk about like, remember we were dating, and like, this time we don't have chaperones, which makes you think that they came of age and like the 50s or something too. it's a very watching. It was just very strange for my brain to wrap my head around time I probably shouldn't have omitted any of this, but that's where

Andy: 1:47:48

No, I agree with you. I think, I think it is, I think they were playing them. Older and also they've obviously played with time and grades and ages and everything over time and

Sean: 1:47:59

Silence.

Andy: 1:48:04

it's interesting.

Mike: 1:48:06

Selman

Sean: 1:48:07

a weird sticking point for me that the show's been on for 35 years and Bart is still in the 4th grade. I'm like, come on, it's ridiculous.

Andy: 1:48:15

have done a million meta jokes about that

Mike: 1:48:18

Selman wrote an episode where like, they retconned it in Marge, and Homer came of age in like the 90s, and people got so mad at him, it was like, why do you, who, why do you care? What do you, what do you, why do you care about that? But people got, people got mad. ha,

Andy: 1:48:33

odd people got

Sean: 1:48:34

were no chaperones in the 90s. In episode, in the aborted episode, they said they had chaperones.

Andy: 1:48:41

I heard Sean say aborted on an episode and I'd like to complain about that.

Mike: 1:48:45

ha ha!

Andy: 1:48:47

so that's it for our show. I guess I just also wanted to say because I realized we were covering the, uh, not only Simpsons pilot, but the Christmas episode of the Simpsons. And I believe this will be released before Christmas. So happy holidays to all of, all of you, all of our fan, our single fan.

Mike: 1:49:05

the pilot of your show, You get to review this at some point,

Andy: 1:49:09

Well, I think, I don't know if we misrepresented. This is, this is the pilot for having guests. We have done other, yes. Are you, do you feel like you, now we've oversold it and we're disappointing you that you're not the very first

Sean: 1:49:21

Do you want us to abort this pilot? Should we abort this pilot?

Mike: 1:49:25

their name he may need to be an abortion I apologize.

Andy: 1:49:28

Thank you. That's a little Chris It's the word abortion 900

Sean: 1:49:33

I, I think going forward we should, we should tell every, like, this is the first time we've had you as a guest. This is our pilot episode with you as a guest. Like, just to, you know.

Mike: 1:49:44

Letterman and I, Apparently, he had a bunch of episodes with no guests for a long time

Andy: 1:49:49

That's right. He had to warm up. He had to figure out his format. It was,

Sean: 1:49:53

that was back when he thought it was gonna be a not talk show.

Andy: 1:49:55

it was an hour of top ten lists.

Mike: 1:49:58

Well, I'm still honored. I'm still taking the honor.

Andy: 1:50:00

Alright, good. Mitch, do you want to hang around for this? Just a couple of

Mike: 1:50:03

down for whatever.

Sean: 1:50:04

that is our show folks. Thank you so much for listening. Uh, we are going to be releasing episodes of this show on the first and third Sunday of each month. In fact, we're already doing that and we're going to continue doing that. So look forward to that. also follow us on social media at co pilots TV on all your favorite. Social media platforms and some of your least favorite ones. And if you're wondering where to watch the pilots that we're discussing. Just check the show notes because we'll always put down Somewhere where you can actually see what we're talking about if you want to watch it ahead of time.

Andy: 1:50:40

And do you like our show? Or do you love our show? Uh, if you could give us five star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, it would really help us out. and if you give us that five star review, you will get your pilot's wings, which is not a real thing. We're not sending you anything. It means nothing. but we're

Sean: 1:50:58

really really selling that That's great.

Andy: 1:51:00

I don't like to raise expectations too much. we are, however, going to read some of the reviews, whether they're positive or negative, as long as they're five stars, to express our gratitude. I believe that we have a couple here. Sean, if you want

Sean: 1:51:11

Yes. I have one here from Christopher Podcaster, so I think we should take this seriously because

Andy: 1:51:19

professional. He's of the famous podcaster family. Very powerful in the podcasting world. They were the robber barons of the podcasting world.

Sean: 1:51:29

right the Carnegie's um, Came for Andy, stayed for Sean. I love the new podcast featuring interesting discussion from engaging presenters. A touch of UCB flavored improv episode play by play. So good it doesn't matter if you've never seen these pilots.

Andy: 1:51:48

what a rave. Uh, we're hoping a lot of, a lot of people in this episode came for the Mitch and then stayed for the Sean and Andy.

Sean: 1:51:54

Or came for the Mitch and Sean and then stayed for the Andy or, you know, There's a lot of, a lot of variations, you

Andy: 1:52:01

sure. Uh, the second one is from Lorenz Webb. who is also known as Donkey of Prey. whose, uh, review is How the Sausage is Made. This podcast has really ruined my enjoyment of television by telling me too much about how the sausage is made. Just kidding. Love it.

Mike: 1:52:16

I don't know how much it would bother me to hear how the sausage is made. I know it's like a saying Like if they were like, we like killed the pig and then like, we, you know, I'd be like, okay, I don't know if it

Andy: 1:52:27

through the sandwich.

Mike: 1:52:28

don't

Sean: 1:52:30

gri we grind up the face. We grind up the hooves

Andy: 1:52:34

Honestly, that's why I've never read Fast Food Nation or,

Sean: 1:52:37

we cut out the we cut out the butthole and take that through a meat grinder Everything is you know, enjoy your

Mike: 1:52:44

just be nodding. I just, I think I just enjoy

Sean: 1:52:46

Sausages are good, man. No doubt about that

Andy: 1:52:49

Mitch, thank you so much. You are our first guest. Couldn't have, uh, couldn't have asked for a better

Sean: 1:52:54

Yeah, you've set the bar very

Mike: 1:52:56

it was an honor to be here. I, I love it. And I love the show and I, love you guys. You guys are great. So thank you for having me.

Andy: 1:53:02

Well, we love you too. I mean, I, I love you. I can't speak for Sean. You and I obviously have a big connection

Sean: 1:53:07

I would like to, I have to get to the dog track.

Andy: 1:53:12

thank you so much.

1:53:14

Hello folks, this is your co pilot Andy speaking. Uh, if you enjoyed our interview with Mike Mitchell, as much as we did, uh, you can actually find more of it on our Patreon. That's right. We added bonus content up there that should be live before the holidays. so if you want to hear more and support the podcast, check it out. Mike talked to us about his experiences selling a pilot, the frustrations of development. the origin story and NPR tone of the Doughboyz pilot and how Russell Brand stole a pilot right out from under him. Uh, that's over at patreon. com slash copilots TV. And until then, please bring your seats back to their upright position. I don't know. Does that sign off work any better?