1 - FREAKS AND GEEKS and Pol Pot

Sean and Andy break down a cult classic, covering the unconventional casting and Sean’s school bus traumas.

As of 11/19/23: Freaks and Geeks is available on Amazon Prime, Hulu, Paramount+, and AppleTV

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• 0:00 Start

Transcript

Sean: 0:01

Hey everybody, welcome to CoPilots. I am Sean Conroy and I'm Andy Secunda. On this podcast, we talk about TV pilots, the first episodes of television shows. Sometimes pilots become long running series. Others don't make it past that first episode.

Andy: 0:17

We're going to talk about all of them. The great pilots, the bad pilots, weird pilots, the forgotten pilots. We are TV writers, but it should be noted that we are the dumbest TV writers, you know, so all of these are just our dumb opinions.

Sean: 0:29

So dumb. So our first pilot that we want to talk about debuted on September 25th, 1999. And just to give you some pop culture context of what else was going on at that time, the number one song in the country at that time, your favorite UN pretty by tlc. You, you love that song, you always,

Andy: 1:00

might say that that was my theme, my personal theme Uhhuh

Sean: 1:02

In, in movie theaters, people were watching being John Malkovich, American Beauty Fight Club. This was back when other people made movies besides Marvel. So there were interesting movies to see.

Andy: 1:14

Not a complainer about the Marvel, tend, just to give everybody a heads up where I stand up.

Sean: 1:18

I, so

Andy: 1:19

the popular stance

Sean: 1:20

right? Don't care for it. Um, Serena Williams had just won her first Grand Slam. My understanding is that she went on to win several more over the next few years. and in television, three days before this show debuted another show debuted called West Wing, which became popular, did well. yeah. Got extended for a number of seasons, unlike the show we're about to talk about. So the pilot we wanted to talk about today is freaks and Geeks, and it is I guess I'll just get into what goes on in the show. Is that,

Andy: 2:00

Well, table set a little bit. Yeah. Obviously just renowned uh, show well thought of,

Sean: 2:09

listed in a lot of top 50 TV shows of all time, top hundred, top thousand. Like you make a list of top shows. This is on a lot of'em

Andy: 2:19

without question. And the bigger you make that number, the more likely Freaks and Geeks

Sean: 2:23

is 50. I saw a list of the top 10,000. It was not on that list.

Andy: 2:26

It's so Yeah. Yeah. course if you asked Jed Apatow or really most people inside the industry was not treated the way it probably should have been treated in terms of promotion, consistency of, airings. And so never really found an audience and was canceled halfway through the first season. And that adds to its legend. The sort of um, the background of how it came to be and these kind of things always fascinate me was that Scott Sassa was the uh, west Coast NBC president He was more from the business side. And so I don't know the details other than some of the oral histories and, uh, Jed AAU sort of speaking about it, but it's like he, he basically was the interim president kind of had, did not have the creative background as an executive that other

Sean: 3:21

he was kind of, he was kind of a unicorn in terms of executives there. I mean, if you have the Scott Sassa trading card, it's worth quite a bit these days.

Andy: 3:28

That's right. Great RBI though. Yeah. And so as a result, this is kind of one of those situations which you can point to many examples. Mad Men being a perfect example of like where there's a weird situation going on behind the scenes with the network at the executive level. And that is the reason. This very unusual show in terms of everything casting tone somehow gets on mainstream network tv and Shelly McCrory, who was development executive at nbc. Basically, according to Legend said, if this show doesn't get on, I'm leaving the business. And Scott Sassa, who was sort of just new to the situation was like, well, I don't, I'm sure I'm just figuring this out, so sure. All right, let's put it on. And you know, they were like, well, we wanna cast in this sort of unusual way. And Scott's ass, it was like, great. Whereas usually it's like, no, we have to go through this rigorous thing. These are the lists, these are the people that are acceptable. We want you to bring you several options, which they had to do anyway. But it's like, everything about this process was unusual, which is why it is one of the most atypical shows for even 1999, which was theoretically kind of the dawn of

Sean: 4:48

the golden age of television. Right. This is why I love talking to you about this stuff because in my notes all it says is like, I liked it, it was good. And you have like a whole breakdown of how the show got made. Which is extensive.

Andy: 5:02

which as I, as I've, I said in the past. And and I will say again, just don't get used to that. That's

Sean: 5:08

that's not gonna happen every

Andy: 5:09

time. No. This one, this one is one which where there's a tremendous amount of material. Right. And I've only poked on the surface. So usually it's just gonna be a Sean and I sang, Hey, that thing I saw on that

Sean: 5:20

was good. I liked

Andy: 5:21

it. But uh, yeah, it was,

Sean: 5:23

a lot of things had to come together for it to work out the way it did.

Andy: 5:27

And there's a systemic uphill battle. In all forms of where, you know, commerce meets art but particularly in network television where it's just, there's so many rigid structures and this was a very unusual situation where it was allowed to be as fluid and creative or closer to fluid and creative until the point when they canceled it halfway through the season. So that's, that's basically just sort of the uh,

Sean: 5:53

have you read the pilot's script? It's very different from what was shot.

Andy: 5:59

Now I wonder is the pilot script, because what I know had happened, ATO and Paul Fiig were friends. Fig was just a

Sean: 6:06

FG wrote the pilot, gave it to Jud, Judd sold it to Scott Sass or whatever. Yeah,

Andy: 6:11

He had a deal at Dreamworks. Yes. And they, they then they pitch it around, they sold it and yeah, and his, and his original script that the network apparently, Shockingly no notes. They were just like, yeah, great. Go and shoot this. And so then Judd was the one, and I guess Jake Kaden, who's the, the only 24, had only done zero effect. Judd Eha had not even seen zero effect before he hired him. Just the greatest luck in the universe that he got the perfect with the person, with the perfect tone to make this they both were like, all right, like now let's tear this apart. Paul Fiig you know, self-admitted control freak was like, what are you doing And they just went through it. And so I wonder if that one that you read is his

Sean: 6:52

original draft? I think it is. I think it's the original draft. And I won't go through it beat by beat. I'll just talk about it in the cold open when we get to that. But it is interesting to see like they took so much out and you really didn't need it and, and, and different things happen in different order and whatever, but it's, I'm always fascinated by that, where people have this very clear idea of what they want to do in a pilot, and then it becomes a collaborative process and there's so many voices involved that things sort of go in a lot of different directions. And I think that speaks to what you're saying about. Network television that if it's the right people and they hit it the right way, it can be great. And if not, it just screws everything up.

Andy: 7:34

Right. And look, I'm gonna be saying if we continue to make this podcast, somebody's saying a lot of kind of salty things about the industry and the system and how difficult it is to make a pure. Sort of thing that you're like, this is what's, this is what feels right intuitively and creatively. Because of exactly what Shawn is saying, there's so many, there's so many voices, there's so many people serving different MA masters and there's so much money involved that from just a reasonable perspective. You know, it's like, I mean, I get it from an executive perspective, you have to answer to your masters. Your job is on the line. There's a tremendous amount of pressure. And so you have to defend everything that you allow to get past, whether it be casting or any shot. And so that's why there's such, what I would call a strangle, hold on, on most of the creative process. But of course, that's not you know, advantageous to any creative process because even if you're left to your own devices, making something fantastic is incredibly difficult.

Sean: 8:33

Right. And that's why, that's why when I write, I choke myself the entire time because I want to get used to the hole. The

Andy: 8:40

on himself. Yeah. Yeah. And then that kind of gives him the, the fire to kind of overcome his

Sean: 8:45

makes me more

Andy: 8:46

productive. I only do that to myself emotionally.

Sean: 8:48

By the way, this show will be very sad.

Andy: 8:50

Well, absolutely. Anyway, that is another guarantee. Um, Why don't we get into it? I'm sure there are other things that I'm gonna, as we go. I'm gonna go, oh, here's another

Sean: 8:59

tidbit. Um, okay. So we come in on typical high school, William McKinley High. Which of course I'm always like, why did they call it? McKinley McKinley was assassinated, the 25th president assassinated in 1901, so Sure. It feels like there's a connection there.

Andy: 9:17

your favorite assassinated president. Right.

Sean: 9:19

Tcho second favorite. I loved Lincoln. Um, Last president to fight in the Civil War. William McKinley was a soldier in the Civil War. Really? Yeah. We come in

Andy: 9:27

Which side?

Sean: 9:29

The right side. Let's just leave it at that. The right

Andy: 9:32

Sean tries to stay away from hot button political topics.

Sean: 9:35

So, uh, So it's fall of 1980. We know it's fall because there's a football practice going on, and we know that that's when football practice happens and we see a cheerleader and a football player in the stands. They're having a conversation about romance. It's very serious, very intense. Then we go down underneath the stands and we meet the, the freaks, or at least some of'em.

Andy: 9:58

What's amazing right off the bat. Mm-hmm. to me. Watching this again, as I've seen it several times is it's like they do, they accomplish exactly what Paul Fis later said they were aiming for, which is like the, the two attractive cheerleader and, and and football player is like, and the tone of the conversation they're having, that's like the w WB show at the time with all the beautiful young people. And they're ta they're sort of going away from them and they're going beneath

Sean: 10:29

who else is there?

Andy: 10:30

outsiders. And that's who we're gonna focus on just immediately first 60 seconds.

Sean: 10:37

Well, that's what I was thinking when I was reading the pilot script. The pilot script is way longer with way more dialogue, way more exposition. Interesting. Who are these people? All that stuff. And they do it and, and and, and it, it strikes me because, and not to brag, I did direct a short film last year and I wrote all kinds of stuff, And then you shoot it and you cut everything because you don't need it because it's a visual medium. And your, your brain is like, I gotta say this and this and this. I gotta put this in and this. And, and then you just see it. And even with casting choices, you don't need to say anything cuz you just look at one of the people and you're like, I know exactly who that person

Andy: 11:15

And since you're off on this topic Allison, don't I mean, since you just let us into this weird blind alley, might as well just follow it, I guess. Alison Jones obviously legendary.

Sean: 11:27

She's one of the stars of Barry, I believe. Right?

Andy: 11:30

Is she? I

Sean: 11:31

she's actually in

Andy: 11:32

that's amazing. Uh, Legendary casting agent, just so. Just such, you know, I've been cast by her and I've, I've just such an eye that is displayed here at just like, in a way that, that is unparalleled in television history. And a part, a lot of it was, I mean, even from Alison Jones' own admission, I think the way they were casting this, she was like, oh, we can do this. You want, you want us to do this? Which is they had just some sides that they just wrote up that weren't in the script, and they just saw every kid in the world and saw, all right, well, who has a voice? Who has a specific quality, who is, you know, who is the character? Or immediately communicates a specific rhythm. And that was how they found these, these just gems that all, almost all, look at that openinig shot. Everyone has a star. major star for good reason. And

Sean: 12:30

I mean for Martin Star was, cuz his name was Star and always

Andy: 12:33

yeah, he had the leg up, that's for sure. and then what they did is they retrofitted the, the script to basically play on the things that were already, in that actor's rhythm and voices and tone. And it's just like, I have so many times tried to reverse engineer from like, okay, let's either start with the actor, let's cast the actor, or if we're going to have the actors, let's cast the actors. And then, you know, and I usually do try to adjust in situations where I've had pilots, but if it's like the first version. The, system doesn't want to do that because then they can't re retain you know, a Hold on. No, these are, this is our list. These are the people we're just gonna put them in. These guys have star power Or they're popular at the moment, even though they're not gonna be

Sean: 13:18

Lot of TikTok followers. Yeah. I

Andy: 13:20

mean now that is what it is. Or on the flip side, you're usually locked a little bit to what the network has agreed to, or the studio or whoever you're dealing with. so it's like you only have so much room to maneuver, changing the script to match the voice or the story. And this was a case where they could do it perfectly and it shows on the screen like these are kids, like some of them. like Martin Star, star apparently. Cuz it's very hard to tell based on the pilot, like it was this who Martin Starr was at this moment, or, and from everything I've read, it's like he wasn't, he wasn't Bill. Mm-hmm. he just had the knack. He knew how to play that guy. Right. Whereas John Francis Daley as Sam was more like, that was how he kind of communicated. Right. And it's just like, it shows on the screen that process. It, it just, like every character is alive immediately. And to your point, you immediately kind of know who they are when you see them before they say anything without

Sean: 14:22

Right. Well, so that's what I was gonna say is in the script, the whole scene with the, with the geeks who we meet after we meet the Freaks, they're outside the auditorium. They're talking about how they were just building sets for the theater and you know, the classic, like these are the fucking nerds from high school and you don't need any of that because you just look at those kids and you know who they are, know? Right. So anyway, we meet them, then we meet the bully Who's gonna beat up Sam? Right. And he's not a nice person, by the way. In case you're just joining us. We're two hours into the show and we're in the cold open right now.

Andy: 14:57

get used to it. One thing that's is also that immediately introduced Thomas F. Wilson. Biff from Back in the

Sean: 15:04

Yes. He's the first person you see on screen.

Andy: 15:06

The immediate what a, how, how much more inspired you guys is. The gym coach is. It's such a gi Yeah. And yet it's like you start with like, oh, he is gonna be the Biff guy, and he is the Biff guy and is in keeping with the, what the show does down the line. It's, and then he's later humanized and there, his relationship with Bill. It's just such a,

Sean: 15:25

well, I think one of the things that stood out to me when I watched the pilot these last couple times is how much of it is about who is on your side when you're that age and it's no one, basically. Right.

Andy: 15:37

And what's interesting, even in that scene is There are two things that are amazing. the first thing is that when the bully starts getting in Sam's face, the two friends immediately turn away and pretend just dissociate. There it is not happening. They, they eject from that situation and abandon him immediately. It's so real. Yeah. And just like

Sean: 15:59

well, because they don't wanna be noticed. Like that's the worst thing you can do is call attention to yourself in that

Andy: 16:03

situation. Of course, I think Sam Levine says, what is, I have I don't remember. I'll get to the quote later. But he has a hilarious quote that his father says, which is just like, don't get involved. That's what uh, you know, my dad tells me to stay outta fights that don't affect me directly. So Amazing. And then on the flip side of that Linda Carini just, it's interesting, the breakdown of the, the people like uh, John Francis Daley, who, who are kind of like, Their strength is their awkwardness and their lack of polish. And that all

Sean: 16:36

just, you just the way he looks. His face, his eyes Right. The entire time Yes. Are saying so much about like, what the fuck is going on

Andy: 16:45

right And what is, what struck me about this in, in this viewing is his eyes are saying it all, and yet his face seems like, it's like you can't, like, that is not an actor's face where he is polished. So I know I can do this and if I hit my angles this way, whatever his face looks like, it's often its own universe as many of the people in the show. I think it to a certain degree like some of the adults too, like there's people like Joe Flaherty who are like, obviously comedy, you know, just heavy hitters, but not like actors that are like, have this total like, you know, laser focused control. That, that it's just like, it's. they're not giving a polished performance. And that in some ways is what breathes life into this show is like, it gives it this weird hyper, almost neorealism Italian neorealist kind of vibe of like, these are real, are we watching real people?

Sean: 17:39

Well, I mean, Joe Flaherty in particular stands out to me as somebody who feels like a of the time. And this until Lindsay just snaps and goes, like, what are you talking

Andy: 17:49

Which grounds it. And so to circle back to Linda Cardini. Yeah.

Sean: 17:53

By the way, now we're three quarters of the way through the pilot.

Andy: 17:55

And so then at the end when uh, Um, Becky and Baker's, another one playing her mom, and I'll, I'll get to her in a moment. But Lindy Carley, who has a similar vibe, which is that they have more of a feeling of. Trained controlled performances that are like certainly, you know, emotional and, and they're inhabiting their characters, but are just like, that's more of a person that's like, okay, well that's gonna be our, our, we're seeing the world mostly through her eyes because that's the most crafted performance. Right. And so it's interesting to see her as the, you could argue the heart of the show in comparison to these people around her that feel like it's just like, oh, this, this woman was dropped into this real high school, somehow

Sean: 18:38

Right.

Andy: 18:39

Right.

Sean: 18:39

So she, so she scares the bully away.

Andy: 18:42

Right. which is another thing, sorry, again. Yeah. There's another thing to the, to the point of like, people, the, the friends go away. And then the second point I was gonna make, the sister tries to help, which is you're on her side. Right. And it has a negative

Sean: 18:58

effect, which is, which is thematically what happens to her throughout the episode. Every time she tries to fix something, she makes it

Andy: 19:03

worse. Right? Is the experience of high school, Like even

Sean: 19:07

never right about anything. Right? She's always wrong. So in this case, beautiful. It's, it's, it's, it's when she says, like to, to insult Alan, she says the thing about you only fight people who weigh less than a hundred pounds and s and Sam is mad at the end. He's like, I actually weigh 103 pounds And then he walks away

Andy: 19:28

and the delivery is like I'm saying, he is just like, by the way, yeah, I live, I weigh 103 pounds. It's just like barely a delivery. And that like makes you lean in and like

Sean: 19:38

okay, so we come outta that, we go into the credit sequence, which is one of my favorite credit sequences of all time.

Andy: 19:44

Just, isn't it? Amazing. That's sort of just like the, the success of certain credit sequences like that that says everything you need to know about every character like Sam Levine given the cheesy like smile

Sean: 19:56

one. of the things I've become very aware of with streaming services, because you can skip the credit sequence, you just don't have to watch it. Yeah. Is like, which credit sequences will I watch when I'm watching a show?

Andy: 20:07

and this is obviously a definite, I

Sean: 20:08

I think it's one of the best

Andy: 20:10

ones. And one of the thing that is also interesting is the, the spirit of the show is so I feel like was fyi. What's gonna happen with me in these podcasts is I'm talking a lot at the top and then I'll tire myself out. You know, like a prize fighter. There

Sean: 20:24

is coffee over there, just so you know.

Andy: 20:26

And then Sean will win at the end. You know, when he, after I'm done Robo Doping

Sean: 20:30

Andy's on the floor over here, folks, and I'm still going. I just wanted to point that out. Okay. Get

Andy: 20:34

back to the mic. Give one more Second. back up there. Randy You could do it kid. In terms of the, in terms of the credit sequence, the the Joan Jet bad reputation thing is sort of antithetical to the spirit of the show, which is we're gonna be concentrating on the losers and the, and the nerds. Whereas that, that, that song is so, sets such a cool tone, contrary to the images we're seeing that people, and to me that is like the show saying, yes, we're focusing on the losers, but this show is gonna be the coolest thing you've ever seen.

Sean: 21:10

And and to your point, they did clearly spend a lot of money on the soundtrack for this, for this episode. I don't know if that's consistent throughout the series,

Andy: 21:18

you think Sticks was really really playing hardball

Sean: 21:22

Well, van Halen at the beginning, that's true. that was, that was, you know, like there, van Halen has never gone away, you know what I mean? Like sure you can shit on sticks all you want.

Andy: 21:32

I love sticks. I got no problem. The other thing just about the credit sequence for profit is down to the choice of the font, which I obviously became iconic, and you instantly think about that show when you see it. Uhhuh is like, that is such an attention to detail. That to me says that is the creators saying you're in good hands. We're looking at everything. Which is interesting for a show that's like, there's very little incidental music almost to the point where it's disturbing Right.

Sean: 22:00

Okay, so we come out that we go into dinner with mom and dad. There's a couple things. Well, the thing I love the most about the scene, first of all, I should establish that I was exactly the age of these kids at that time. Yeah. Like, I was Sam's age in 1980.

Andy: 22:15

Right. Well, I'm far

Sean: 22:16

than you. Yeah. You're way younger than I am. And you were, you were, you were Sam's age in 2004. I think

Andy: 22:21

right, yes. I've aged very poorly

Sean: 22:24

but the moment where he tells his father, he's so excited about seeing Monty Python in the Holy Grail. That was my relationship with my And

Andy: 22:32

was his response

Sean: 22:33

the baffled, like, I don't understand what you're even talking about.

Andy: 22:36

That to me is one of Joe Flaherty's. Yeah.

Sean: 22:39

That he, like, he, he kind of plays along, but he clearly is just like, it's, yeah, it's not, what do you even mean? That's

Andy: 22:45

why like, it's not full cartoon character because it's not like, what are you talking about? I don't

Sean: 22:49

don't

Andy: 22:49

hear it. It's just like he's being polite. He's just like, I don't know what you're talking about and I don't care. But

Sean: 22:55

well, that's the whole thing is I do not care. I have no. Interest in what you're

Andy: 23:00

But he's not being a dick

Sean: 23:01

think about No, no, no, no. He just doesn't care. And then of course, it comes out that they ha that Lindsay has to go to the, has to go to the homecoming dance. She has no choice. Right? then we come into the, into the lunchroom. There's a great triple joke, is always a, a fun Star Trek reference.

Andy: 23:19

And this is, I'm sure anyone who's dug into the history knows this story, but uh, Sam Levine who's hilariously of have, you've met Sam Levine. Oh, yeah. Yes. Of all the people

Sean: 23:28

Well, he used to, he used to be around the UCB Theater a lot. Back in the early days out here on

Andy: 23:33

is, if we haven't specified, that's how Sean and I know each other. He

Sean: 23:35

upright Citizens Brigade Theater, the renowned, dominating comedy force of the early 21st century

Andy: 23:42

He, when he auditioned, he he, like, they would look at his, his audition and they were sort of like, okay, well that's, you know, it's a solid audition. And then the, the casting people were like, well wait until the end. And at the end. Can I do it now? And he went into his Shatner impression. They're like, oh, okay. This is the guy So

Sean: 24:00

Like he was that guy. Yeah.

Andy: 24:03

and he is, when you meet him in life to a certain degree,

Sean: 24:05

yeah. Super nice guy. So again, I just love the scene because it is that dread of walking into the lunchroom and am I gonna find the people I'm gonna be able to sit That moment of indecision. And then we also we see Alan again in the scene, the bully bullying Sam

Andy: 24:25

Ladi, who is in the Sandlot.

Sean: 24:28

Okay. I don't know all their I'm And we see Eli, who is a kid with special needs played by the great, great actor Ben Foster, known from three 10 Te Yuma Alpha Dogs. last stand, X-Men last stand. I mean, we could go on and on. But this is a

Andy: 24:50

playing possum on this one. I was like, oh, I thought he was gonna make up openinig cuz he didn't, he didn't care it. Uh,

Sean: 24:57

Yeah. No, I love Ben Foster. He's amazing. And

Andy: 24:59

you wanna marry Ben Foster,

Sean: 25:01

not married, just have sex if you're listening, Ben, I'm available but you know, he's, he's playing a kid with special needs, which of course you could never do that now like it would

Andy: 25:12

be So that I agree with you. But in terms of the performance itself, I think it's like I don't know. I, I feel like it, it succeeds on a level. It's not patronizing to the character No. I was impressed immediately and I'd forgotten how much he was in the Yeah. That I was like, oh, that's a fantastic one-off, little, little characterization. Right. So

Sean: 25:35

Yeah. He is, he is very important to the pilot all the way through. So then Lindsay, we cross and Lindsay meets up with Daniel and goes out to the smoking patio and we're back with the geeks. Oh, and I should say in the cold open, there's a moment where Lindsay is watching the, the freaks and she, she just clearly is yearning to be a part of that group, which you can tell because she's wearing an army jacket. Like that is the dead giveaway of like, she belongs with the burnouts. Sure. You know,

Andy: 26:03

which is a side, side note. Another genius element to this show that is so atypical both in that time and in this time is you're dressing your female lead in a baggy army jacket. Never would be done. Never would be allowed.

Sean: 26:20

So we get that. She wants to be part of that group. She's not part of the group. She runs into Daniel in the lunchroom and goes with him out to. the smoking patio. Which is a big deal. Clearly in her mind, she's trying to play it cool. Right. But she can't believe she's gonna go to the smoking patio.

Andy: 26:37

Although one interesting aspect that is also atypical is there's a little bit of a vibe. And I think they went through different versions of, how far in it was in terms of her relationship to the burnouts. But that she does, she does, they don't have to go through the thing of her meeting Daniel and whatever they, it's like they know each other, Yeah. This is the first moment she's sort of invited out, which is a perfect storytelling way to shortcut it. Just enough. But we also see enough of the, of the introduction, which I think

Sean: 27:07

of the relationship, did. I mean, that's a big thing in pilots, right? Is you have the new person coming in who doesn't know anybody, and that's how we get all the exposition of this is this person, this is this person. But it's done so subtly in this that you don't have to have all that

Andy: 27:24

Have you ever, Sean? I mean, I can't, I can't even yes. Andy, have you ever said a smart thing in your entire life? Have you ever seen it at pilot with as little spoken It's amazing. It's all behavioral. Yeah. It's all the dynamics that are displayed costuming.

Sean: 27:45

And that's why at the end of the episode I was like, I have no idea who any of these

Andy: 27:48

people, which is very frustrating. And this is my point.

Sean: 27:50

be, to be fair. I mean, I, I, I, I was thinking about that in terms of they, they do have a certain advantage, which is that it all takes place in high school. Which means that we all immediately recognize

Andy: 28:04

there's a shorthand

Sean: 28:06

every, like, you don't have to go. So here at this high school, we usually take English classes and social studies. Like it's just something that we are all instantly familiar

Andy: 28:16

But do we. I think you're right.

Sean: 28:19

I think you didn't take English at your high

Andy: 28:20

school. No, we didn't, we didn't do English. Clearly But is there, the, the characters, obviously there were nerds in, in popular culture, but Paul Fiue or State, he wanted to do the kind of nerds that he was and his friends were, which is very different than the taped, you know, glasses. Right. Classic nerds. But also were there sort of Lambda.

Sean: 28:43

Omega move.

Andy: 28:45

We'll be doing that even though there's a TV podcast, we will be, I think there was actually maybe we will be doing

Sean: 28:50

a Revenge of the Nerds

Andy: 28:51

I'm certain there must have been. I know there was a, there was a, a Delta House pilot that I. Had Michelle Pfeifer in it, if I'm not mistaken,

Sean: 29:01

As Blu Tark

Andy: 29:03

That's really, it was very off odd casting. Um, sit

Sean: 29:08

Michelle, Do it again.

Andy: 29:09

But uh, Oh. So my question is, did we see burnouts on television prior to this point? Yeah.

Sean: 29:16

I don't know. I definitely saw them when I was in high school, so Yeah. I got it. You know, immediately I was like, oh, that's my, I won't even say the person's last name, but I

Andy: 29:24

because it might be a judge.

Sean: 29:26

Yeah. Yeah. We go to the smoking patio, we meet, we meet in person more, we find out more about the, the burnouts, the, the, the freaks. Lindsay again is having trouble fitting in. She's like, yeah, I'm gonna go to the dance. It'd be fun to go Right guy. And they're just contemptuous of that, right? Seth Rogan calls her father Hitler

Andy: 29:47

No, let me ask you about that, because this is, that's ex, that's a, a great example of the kind of jokes that the kids do in this thing. Yeah. And I was like, is that a good joke or is that a perfect, like, realistic teenager joke?

Sean: 30:02

I think it's, where is it both? I think it's real. Like, I think that, is it it, because

Andy: 30:07

is it like funny because it's like that, is it a perfect thing that a kid would say that would be kind of nasty, but also not a great like, high level joke but

Sean: 30:18

Right. That's what I was gonna say is like, that's the easiest reference to go to. Right. And so that's the reference he's gonna go to. he's not like a great joke writer. He's just like, in the moment going, what is your father? The worst person I can possibly think of. Right.

Andy: 30:34

You know, which is why this is sort of genius because obviously, you know they were both standups, app Patau coming who had, he'd worked on Ben Stiller's show and Larry Sanders is where he kind of made his bones and he learned, you know, it's obvi and you could see the, the influence of Larry Sanders on the show in terms of casting and how you're structuring the show. and so they, they obviously could have written the best jokes you had ever heard. They wrote them in a non mannered kind of very simple way that was true to the characters, which is what makes it even funnier cuz you're laughing at the characterization and not the,

Sean: 31:10

it it, it says something about who that character is. Right. Not about, and this is a pet peeve of mine and why, probably why I don't as much enjoy comedy pilots is you don't hear the writers when the characters are talking on Right. And I think in a lot of sitcoms it's like, oh, I hear the writers patting themselves on the back for getting that joke into the script, you know?

Andy: 31:35

Absolutely. I mean, I love to pat myself on the back. I love to do a lot of

Sean: 31:39

well, that's why I so enjoyed

Andy: 31:41

kind of jokes, right? I was always like, this doesn't really show how smart we

Sean: 31:45

are. What if instead of Hitler, we said, I don't know, Paul Pot's, nasty cousin

Andy: 31:50

I'm certain we've both written Paul pot jokes. Other thing I just wanna note, since you were touching

Sean: 31:54

just a funny name. Paul

Andy: 31:55

Pot. Yeah. Everybody, we gonna leave that on the table. Looking at like Seth Rogan and the sort of the meanness of that character, it's very interesting sort of having seen his persona now and obviously being probably close to who he is in real life. And this sort of. Perfect amiable version of Seth Rogan. And I sort of found a quote that was him saying, at the time, I kind of had a chip on my shoulder, you know, because I hadn't gotten any girls to to sleep with me yet. I was incredibly angry and repressed, and I think they saw me as this kind of weird, sarcastic guy and started writing towards that. But then they got to know me and saw me as a nice guy. And then that revealed itself in the, as the show progressed. Right. Which is fascinating seeing this early because

Sean: 32:37

it really, well there's that, there's

Andy: 32:38

he makes that group very

Sean: 32:41

threatening, uncomfortable, right? Well, because she goes immediately, they're like, oh, you're the girl who got an A in English class and. Well, what are you gonna do? Like trying to play it down and not be, not be the nerdy kid, which is very relatable to me because I ne I mean, that was the thing about revenge the nerds, is that at that time is guys. I was terrified that people would think I was one of those guys. It was such a phobia of like, I don't want the cool people to think I'm a nerd. And so she is in that position, and she goes, what are you gonna do? And Seth, Seth Rogan goes, I don't know. What are you gonna do? Like, in other words, I'm not letting anything slide. I am gonna attack you no matter what

Andy: 33:23

and where are you One of the

Sean: 33:25

I mean, there's, there's different sides But yes, absolutely.

Andy: 33:30

Too. I was actually, there was no, there were no groups. I went to such a small school that there were no groups at all. So I was lucky that the, the cliques were cliques of like three to five.

Sean: 33:40

Well, I mean, I went so far as by, by junior year I started playing. I, I was in all the, the shows. I was like, yeah, let's do Carousel. Let's do guys and dolls. Let's and then by junior year, I was like, also, I'm gonna play football because I want people to not think I'm just a theater nerd.

Andy: 33:56

You you experienced a lifelong injury during that, right? I,

Sean: 33:59

well, yes, and I also still hold a couple of records for my high school. In terms of receiving, I think I'm tied for first with least catches and least yardage. Good for you. At zero and zero

Andy: 34:12

I I see the award on your mantle

Sean: 34:14

It's not a good looking award, but it's on the mantle. What are you gonna do when you get an award? You put it on the mantle, you know, also, I had to get a mantle to put the award on.

Andy: 34:21

Yeah. It's two people. One person is missing a, a catch, and then there's a person behind him making a pu sign.

Sean: 34:29

That was my

Andy: 34:29

there's a lot of

Sean: 34:30

So, but this is also the scene where we meet Millie. Is that her name? Yes. For the first time.

Andy: 34:35

Like you don't know Millie's name?

Sean: 34:37

well, she's the one I identify

Andy: 34:39

most. I'm sure she was kind of probably the one I identify

Sean: 34:42

But again,

Andy: 34:43

actually that's not true because she was academically accomplished.

Sean: 34:45

You just look at her and you immediately get who this character is.

Andy: 34:48

Isn't that amazing? Yeah. Who else would cast her? Yeah. They cast any of the people on the show. Right?

Sean: 34:54

And she is very focused on whether or not, Lindsay is gonna participate in the academic decathlon. 1980 was a big time for the decathlon because Bruce Jenner had just won the gold in the decathlon a couple years before that. I think I could be wrong about right before that. So this starts Lindsay's whole thing with, I'm not gonna do the academic decathlon. I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. Right. And Millie is very upset by how anybody could not desperately want to be part of the academic. I mean, she's their best athlete, of course. so then we're, oh, Cindy returns Sam's jacket. She's very kind about it, which to bill and, and Neil means that she is. in love with Sam, Like Neil is just baffled that Cindy would be seen in the hallway with Sam's jacket. Like, how is that possible?

Andy: 35:44

And if I could touch on this for a second. Yeah, yeah. The introduction of Cindy Sanders is like, they see her coming from across the, the cafeteria. He says there's, there's Cindy Sanders dream on Sam because he obviously already has a huge crush on her. And then Bill says, incoming, they take the time. It's not like, oh, she just suddenly appears, they take the time for her to make that cross across the cafeteria. There is no incidental music. Mm-hmm. what other show? Definitely in the nineties, but I would say even today, again, would not have some kind of, you know, heavy metal guitar riff slowmo of the

Sean: 36:23

I was gonna say sha

Andy: 36:24

charade, obviously that would, of

Sean: 36:27

Sharda or Shar

Andy: 36:27

SHA charade,

Sean: 36:29

s

Andy: 36:32

Certain, I've pronounced it that way many

Sean: 36:35

know the Marquita Sharda was a famous uh,

Andy: 36:37

And not, not to mention that, but of course, again, even this is, this is the crush character,right. Cast by a character that absolutely could be out of your, your high school instead of someone who's basically a 20, 27 year old playmate being on a high school character and dressed appropriately to that. And it is

Sean: 36:55

just, you know that Michelle Pfeiffer was the original casting for

Andy: 36:58

this. Oh, that's interesting,

Sean: 36:59

And then she got cast in, she had

Andy: 37:02

I got her for, for

Sean: 37:03

first position. yeah, yeah. yeah.

Andy: 37:05

yeah. I mean there's always a, there was always a, a feeding frenzy over

Sean: 37:08

What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? She eventually did the high school movie about the mines.

Andy: 37:14

Minds. Yeah. Yes. Which we also will not be covering cuz it's movie. No, let's move on. It was played by Natasha Melnick. Uh, But here's the other thing I was gonna say about this, is this plot in the, in the show is like interesting to me because it is a show that leans so heavily on this is the T alternative. This is gonna be about their losses, this is gonna be about their struggles. And even to the point where I think one of the biggest points of contention was when, when Scott Sassa, see, the one thing I'm

Sean: 37:44

confused you're obsessed with Scott Sasa. Can I just point that

Andy: 37:47

Sasa. up to now? I wish I

Sean: 37:49

could You're wearing, I mean, that T-shirt says iHeart Scott Sasa.

Andy: 37:52

Look, I just feel like you know, he, the guy picked up the show. He didn't interfere with the creative process. This is my kind of guy call me Scott. uh, so, so I'm not sure exactly what, because he was a West Coast president, Garth Aner came over from wb and that was the person who had, had a lot of the biggest conflicts with Judd aau according to Judd AAU himself. And I believe the, the statement from Garth Anier, which was the, the big point of contention was can they get more wins? Can we see these character get more wins? And it's interesting to me because I think if you look at that particular plot, especially in this pilot, it's a huge win. This is a girl that he has a

Sean: 38:36

crush off. I think both of them win by the end. Yeah. The, the whole pilot is about ultimately coming out on top, both of them.

Andy: 38:44

So it's sort of, and I don't know if that was you know, a concession they made for the pilot and then they were like, well now we're gonna, you know, they obviously deal with a bunch of stuff that's, that's hard on a pilot um, in terms of an audience. But it is interesting that that was a

Sean: 38:58

a 15 year old having an existential crisis about whether or not God is,

Andy: 39:02

I mean, if you wanna get into this now, that scene is shocking.

Sean: 39:07

Yeah.

Andy: 39:09

it is shocking in terms of a pilot that it, there's so much, there's so much in that scene that is like, she, she asked your grandmother, is there, do you see a light? Do you see anything? No. There is nothing. Nothing.

Sean: 39:23

There is nothing. But that's what, that's what, but that's

Andy: 39:28

what, and she's telling it to her younger brother to the point where he bra can't even compute it. And he's just like,

Sean: 39:34

do you think I could beat an a Helen or

Andy: 39:35

not? Situation with the bully. Getting back to that.

Sean: 39:37

it's so great. Like, I love that scene. You know, because it's, it's, it is, it's like he, he can't, he doesn't even understand what she's talking

Andy: 39:44

about. Grandma looked terrified and told me she didn't want to go. Mm-hmm. It's fucking insane. Yeah. Can you see God or light or heaven or anything?

Sean: 39:54

We're trying to get, we're

Andy: 39:55

there's nothing.

Sean: 39:56

We're trying to get seven quadrants. Including, including is people who have suicidal ideation.

Andy: 40:02

This is the leadoff show. This is like, this is what you got in store. So let's stick around. Huh? No, no, we're not gonna do that. he gave us one guitar riff when the crush showed up. Maybe we would hang

Sean: 40:14

So, so Sam wants to know, he wants his friends to find out if Cindy has a date for the homecoming dance. And, and this is where we meet a pivotal person in both of our the character of Kim.

Andy: 40:31

busy Phillips,

Sean: 40:32

busy Phillips,

Andy: 40:33

Kim Kelly who, Sean says that because the show that I created you don't have to look it up, don't go outta your

Sean: 40:40

way. A pilot. A pilot that Andy sold to U P N that ran for a number of episodes

Andy: 40:45

ran for full season, give it, its due episodes. Love Incorporated. Mm-hmm. I, I actually don't think I have to tell you to don't, don't bother looking up cuz it's probably very hard to watch

Sean: 40:54

I was just trying to find the Barry robot scene the other night on the internet and

Andy: 40:58

That's your, yeah, that is one of my favorite scenes. The Barry Robot scene being a scene that there was a lot of resistance doing anything too broad. And we somehow got the, my, the person above me uh, who was supervising the show to accept this, because he was into like rich person robots, like, you know, kind of AI stuff to get that one of the characters somehow got, got a bunch of money. Adopted a robot game. Yeah. Right. He won. Oh, he wanted a poker

Sean: 41:25

game. He won the money in a poker game and he bought a robot with the money

Andy: 41:29

and the robot basically was sentient. At the end of the episode when he says, I'm sorry, I gotta, I gotta let you go. He, the robots closes the blinds and his eyes turns red implying that he's going

Sean: 41:42

that he's gonna kill Barry. And, and, and just because I can't not talk about the robot. Yeah. The robot was controlled by a guy who did the voice of the robot. And it was, it's still my favorite voice ever in the history of television because the guy had a little bit of an accent. And so the way the robot talked was the robot would go, I am sorry Barry, I am going to have to bring you in. Like, he didn't have like a real robot voice. It was kind of halfway between robot voice and Eastern Europe. Yeah. So

Andy: 42:11

uh, how did we get off on the robot? Oh, busy Phillips right? This is where busy Phillips tuned up, like busy Phillips will ever listen to this until we make her do the show anyway busy Phillips was the lead on Love Incorporated. Um, one of the leads. And that's, that's fair. Yes. There were five. It was, it's a pretty definite ensemble. And just you know, everything you want busy Phillips to be a delight, a, a comedy, you know, surgeon delivered anything you wanted to deliver. A friend, just great. And I had, I was not a, a a freaks and geeks die hard at that point. So I sort of knew of it. I'd seen it, and I think it was only later I really appreciated what a, what a giant in television this show was. So I sort of, it was in working with her that I came to appreciate how good she was, how she could

Sean: 43:05

do, and doing a very different character,

Andy: 43:08

very different. And the rhythm that we wrote in was much more. mannered sitcom. These are

Sean: 43:16

jokes. I had a lot of great jokes that I patted myself on the back for in that

Andy: 43:20

without question. He would do victory laps around the writer's room, which were,

Sean: 43:24

not a big room. So it wasn't that hard,

Andy: 43:26

Not, not a tasteful thing, to be honest with you.

Sean: 43:29

Um, So Kim shows up. Lindsay does not understand why Kim is being so mean to her. So Kim immediately is even more mean. Like I just, again, Lindy Cardini as, as, as this confused person. What is happening right now? I, I'm allowed to be here and, and, and Kim just dumps her purse on the

Andy: 43:50

floor. And what's interesting about that is that it's not even, that, it's not even stated what her issue is there. Like you're immediately intimidated by her. You know what the dynamic is. You, you the probably like, do you think it's clear in that scene that it's about territory and maybe something to do with Daniel? Because I feel like it's, I

Sean: 44:09

think it's, I think it's, if you know anything about high school, it seems fairly clear,

Andy: 44:13

but that's the genius, is it's letting us connect the dots. Mm-hmm. really the only exposition that is stated in this show is Lindsay's backstory about her grandmother, everything else, which is in, in like essential to the theme, her thematic arc for why she is getting involved with the freaks in the first place and to the, to the arc of where she's going in the next several episodes. Right. Everything else is implied.

Sean: 44:40

So. Next up we have the gym class where Alan is going after, you know the, the gym teacher tell, tells them because of the homecoming game, they get the day off or whatever. Yeah. And they're gonna play dodge ball. And of course that's a nightmare for Sam. Sam stays in the game longer than anybody else, long enough to beat Alan at dodge ball. He catches the ball. A victory. Yeah. Victory. But, but, but, no, no, no. But, but it's a victory, but a loss because, Well, that's, it makes him even angrier and he's like, you're dead

Andy: 45:11

That's where it feels real, is that with each victory there is sort of a

Sean: 45:16

it

Andy: 45:16

element. Yeah. Or it doesn't always get worse, but it's always like colored with something. But before we're off the, the locker room, just like the uh, the line from Bill where he is sort of just standing there looking at himself, he's like, these shirts aren't very flattering, are they How is that in line? What a great line Like, it's not a hard joke. It's so funny though. Martin Star is, it's just the first episode and he has the, the comedic voice of that character just razor sharp

Sean: 45:47

we were, we were watching, we were watching the pilot After it was over, I had to the scene of him watching Gary Shandling on TV by himself. It's just one of my favorite scenes such a, such a sad, funny character Um, so they play dodge ball, then we come up on the bleachers and kids are making fun of Eli and Lindsay stands up for Eli. And of course that goes horribly wrong, Because Eli breaks his what's, and blames Lindsay

Andy: 46:17

it, right? He's Eli's hurt because he, he, he uses the R word and he says, I'm special. He's offended. She's trying to say, no, they're really making fun of you. And then the, the perfect little icing on the cake is that one of the bullies is then, oh, I'm the mean one. Yeah. Which is such a perfect, like, bully thing on school, burn in uh, the modern political spectrum or on social media, to like immediately turn the tables in some weird way where it's like, no, you're the asshole

Sean: 46:46

And then we come

Andy: 46:47

on, it's also, this also broke my heart, by the way. Again, I was immediately like, no, no, don't hurt You like,

Sean: 46:52

right. So funny. It really bothered me. Uh, So then we see Mr. Rosso,

Andy: 46:57

as it should,

Sean: 46:58

We think, we think Mr. Rosso, the guidance counselor is talking to Lindsay because of what happened with Eli. She thinks that as well. And it turns out he's just trying to convince her to participate as a athlete academic. That's all he cares

Andy: 47:08

so Great.

Sean: 47:09

Yeah.

Andy: 47:11

another another interesting that, that performance, you know, another one where it's, you know, Dave Gruber Allen. Mm-hmm. who is Sean and I sort of remembered from the uh,

Sean: 47:21

Higgins Boys in Gruber,

Andy: 47:23

which Sean reminded me was a show on mtv. Yeah. Which is, that really tells you where mtv, the, the, the network that you could argue built young, attractive people on television

Sean: 47:34

it's responsible for everyone's obsession with being thin and pretty at

Andy: 47:41

And it's, it was the Higginson boys grouper were one of the the major

Sean: 47:44

they were not young and pretty. They were young. They were not pretty.

Andy: 47:48

But this char, this is, this

Sean: 47:50

is we're all beautiful, by the way, but

Andy: 47:51

Sure. Of course. Everyone is. Yes. Not Sean and I, but other people are speak for yourself, Fair enough. But the Mr R Russo performance is such a perfect, like, of an awkward performance. the reason I like it is because it kind of puts me in the mind of like, in high school, high school teachers have that kind of, they're not polished, performers, they're like sort of awkward, sometimes broken people that uh, there does look like there's just like a little bit of awkwardness in every move, in every way they communicate

Sean: 48:23

And, and that idea of like, I wanna be down with the kids. Like, I'm just like you until the lines are drawn and you go, no, you're in trouble. You know, like he's being manipulative the entire time, even though he's going like, you call me Jeff, and I call you Lindsay. Right. your friend. Nobody is your friend when That's,

Andy: 48:45

that's the sort of the theme of the show. Yeah. Well, I guess that's not the theme of the show because, you know, everybody stands up for each other and

Sean: 48:52

Right. But no adult is there

Andy: 48:53

No. adult Is there?

Sean: 48:54

Yes. You know? Okay. So then we come in on this new character that we've never seen before. But again, it's so easy to understand who this person is without any Explanation any exposition, because he's just a weird dude who's a little older who goes, ah, yes, the cressman conundrum. like.He's been through the same thing that Sam's going through and he has the perfect solution for it.

Andy: 49:18

that character was a guy who apparently. They were over overwhelmed with the amount of kids, Uhhuh and Paul Fike says he feels bad about it cuz he just was just like, we just gotta pick out some and whatever. And so he went into the, the, the waiting room and he just was like, okay, I guess you come in, you come in. And then that guy was standing there and was like, well this guy's got a crazy look. All right. You go in. And they just built a character

Sean: 49:43

it.

Andy: 49:43

Yeah. It

Sean: 49:45

was perfect. Uh, So he tells'em, you gotta fight your bully. And if you fight your bully, you'll feel good even if you lose. Right. And then he tells him that the guy broke his tailbone, but he got expelled. So it worked out great great. Which all you know, Sam only focuses on the fact that, or sorry, not Sam, Sam Levine's character Neil only focuses on the fact that it's violence and he does not want to be hurt. And then we then we see Lindsay and Ken. Ken wants Lindsay to cut class with him, right. So they, they go off together. This is also, this next scene is,

Andy: 50:19

wait, is, I think Ken is is Seth Rogan? Am I

Sean: 50:22

wrong about Oh no, you're right, you're right. I forget the other guy's The drummer Siegel. Yeah. I don't

Andy: 50:29

Right. We all know Jason

Sean: 50:29

Siegel. Yeah. So he wants, he wants Lindsay to come off with. uh, Ba We're back in the hallway with Sam where they're discussing fighting tactics and Sam sees Cindy down the hall and then accidentally makes eye contact with Kim, who basically seduces him in the hallway,

Andy: 50:48

him. Uhhuh What do you make of that scene? I'm curious. here's first of all, Just amazing performance by busy, they're just so threatening. Yeah. Like that's hard to do. Communicate that level of threat and have it feel real.

Sean: 51:05

it feels to me like a uh,

Andy: 51:10

that character's, the weird character's name is Harris Rinky, played by Steven Lee Shepherd.

Sean: 51:13

Okay. It feels to me like that scene is really about establishing Kim's character. And also You know, Sam being so confused by her sexuality in that

Andy: 51:28

Well, that's what's so that that really is a scene that's just like, could that be done today? Because that gets to the heart of like, and I think that was a, a thing, a stated intention of certainly Paul Fiig, but I think everyone involved is in all and everything up till that point. kids in high school were presented as like sexually confident. They wanted to get laid, whatever, as opposed to the, you know, the real terror that usually is involved in high

Sean: 51:54

But to me that scene pushes Sam further in the direction of asking Cindy to the dance because he like, interesting. I feel good about whatever's going on here. Even though it was awful at the end I was like, up. Yeah. He was like, what is this? What am I feeling right now?

Andy: 52:11

That's very interesting. Yes, I think that's

Sean: 52:14

Um, so then we come back

Andy: 52:16

also just the, the nuances of he is both threatened and kind of interested the blame and then ends up threatened again. It's just so great.

Sean: 52:26

Yeah. He doesn't know if he should just kiss her in that

Andy: 52:28

moment. Not to mention what's going on in Kim Kelly's head of just like, just torturing this kid, but playing out

Sean: 52:35

so weird knowing that he has no idea what's going on and she's just destroying his psyche. I will say for me it was seventh grade. There was a girl in eighth grade, I was on the bus with her. She's the prettiest girl in the eighth grade. And she said to me, we were on a class trip and she sat down next to me and she said, do you want to sleep with me? Would you be willing to sleep with me? And I was like, like Sam. Like I didn't even know what that meant at that point, you know? I was 13. Yeah. And

Andy: 53:05

the age of, of John Francis Daley,

Sean: 53:07

right? Or he, he's a year older than I was at that time. Or two. Two years. He's supposed to be a freshman in high school.

Andy: 53:13

Oh, I'm just saying.

Sean: 53:15

Oh, in real life.

Andy: 53:15

real life. I think he was younger,

Sean: 53:17

But anyway,

Andy: 53:18

when he was cast,

Sean: 53:19

at I, I, so I'm sitting there and I'm like, what does this person mean? But I'm intrigued and I, you know, she's so just stunningly beautiful in my mind. And then I look up and all the other eighth graders are just laughing around me because it was all a setup. So it was like exactly the same

Andy: 53:38

And so you're saying the, the real painful part of that memory is that now you can't use it in your own

Sean: 53:43

No, no, no. What's cool is we did, we did actually fuck on the bus that

Andy: 53:47

day. Oh, well, it's okay. That's, that's, and you got your wins. Garth, Garth Anier would be happy,

Sean: 53:51

But things got worse cuz she had a boyfriend. So in a way the wind

Andy: 53:54

see a lot of complications. It sounds like good writing.

Sean: 53:56

Yeah. So, okay, where were we? We were on, uh,

Andy: 54:00

Kelly's terrorizing Sam

Sean: 54:01

Kim Kelly terrorizing. Oh no, we're back at, at, uh, Jason Siegel and and Lindsay at Jason's house. Yes. Looking at the drum set. And so this is, this is a big moment for her.

Andy: 54:12

Jason Siegel's. Nick and Dolos.

Sean: 54:15

Right. This is a big moment for her because he says you have to find your big gigantic drum set Right. Which is so funny that he has the biggest drum set and all he needs is a couple more drums and he'll have a bigger drum set than Neil Burt. Like that is what makes you a great drummer, is how many drums you have in your drum set. Sure. It's great. And it makes him so happy and he's like, you have to find your version of my drum set and figure out what makes you happy.

Andy: 54:39

And what's also amazing about this is the complexity of, clearly Lindsay is into Daniel. That's the crush You have the weird relationship Daniel has with Kim Kelly and how that plays out in such a tempestuous way. And then, and then Nick is, is sort of pursuing Lindsay and it's so high school and so, but so like

Sean: 55:02

and, and and it happens right from the moment he sees her on the smoking patio, right? Like there's an exchange there where he's clearly interested in her and thinks she's great, which she is. Lindsay? Yeah. So

Andy: 55:15

defended Eli.

Sean: 55:17

then he talks about how he's gonna come and get her so he can take her to the homecoming dance. So she doesn't have to li lie to her father. He is gonna put on the suit. Like he's just like head over heels at this point, you know, and then Mr. Rosso shows up and becomes manipulative that fucking asshole. Uh,

Andy: 55:35

so as a former teacher, Sean, didn't feel like you kind of saw where he was coming from?

Sean: 55:40

No, I used to let my kids do whatever they wanted to.

Andy: 55:43

Gotcha.

Sean: 55:43

So she's now being f she's gonna be forced to work at the homecoming dance. She can't. Right. And I was wondering if they were going to play it like she cuts the deal, but I guess she establishes. It's kind of nice even in that scene when he's like, well, can't you just lie to your father? And she's like, no, I can't. Like, she's just like, she's not capable of it. It's she's still a good kid, even though she wants to be a freak. Of course leads into the conversation with Lindsay and her parents and the, and, and, and Joe Fla Flat Flaherty freaking out and giving the amazing line You can't cut corners of life. You know, who cut corners Kennedy when running the Bay of Pigs, which is with, you could argue that is a pole pot style joke. And I wonder if Flaherty wrote it or if that was if that was like an improv or if that was originally in the Yeah, so, so she, this, this is where she calls him out and it's. Just great because she's like, what are you talking about? Right. Like, you make no sense. And I love that because like I said, he feels very cartoonish to me up until that

Andy: 56:45

point and that grounds it. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I, we, I feel the same about this character as you feel.

Sean: 56:49

And then in that moment she leaves and he is so desperate to get Sam's approval. Right. You know of like, you know what I'm talking about. Right. Sam so beautiful. And Sam is very torn about whether he should say yes or no.

Andy: 57:02

What I love so much about that last moment with Sam though, is it cuts to him and that in any other show would be like, here's what I think about your opinion, dad. Or some Yeah,

Sean: 57:14

Yeah,

Andy: 57:14

yeah, Crafted joke. Right. That Sean and I would work on for a very long

Sean: 57:19

You know, you're no Paul Pot, but you're pretty great.

Andy: 57:22

That's probably what it would be. Yeah. We love to work on Paul Pot in the first you know, in, in, in any major episode of a podcast, you gotta work in Paul Pot at least nine times

Sean: 57:31

title of this episode. Right.

Andy: 57:33

Paul Pot. Sure. Yeah. Really, really. Pull a man, pull Pot and Freak. Oh, freaks and Geeks Pull Pot. Um, But anyway, SIM's response is, Yeah. Yeah. That's it. That is the joke. I dunno what to say. That's where it builds up to perfect delivery. Yeah. It's just, what is funny is the awkwardness of that character. Kinda like, I don't wanna be in an argument about this. Yeah. But I'm not, you know, percent

Sean: 58:00

on board so that's when we get to the scene with Sam and, and, and Lindsay in her bedroom. where he just wants to know whether or not she thinks he could take Alan. And it's, it's also, again, to go back to that idea of who's on your side. Like, this is such a great scene because it establishes that they're both on each other's side. You know, that they're the ones who have each other's backs. Because Sam says, I think it's the second line he has is like, why are you throwing your life away? Right? And it turns out that's what Millie wanted him to ask. And she gets mad about that. And then he goes, just because I asked you doesn't, or just because she told me to ask you doesn't mean I would've told her what you said. It's like, it's just a great development of like, they're looking out for each other,

Andy: 58:45

And it also shows like it has that sweetness, but it also shows the dividing lines of like, Lindsay will defend him against a bully. She'll sort of say the nice thing at the end of like, he's a goner when he asks can we beat the bully? But you will also just be like, this is the thing that's bothering me, this giant existential crisis, so I'm just gonna lay out, is

Sean: 59:07

any of this worth

Andy: 59:09

anything. Like, I'm just gonna tell you that life is not worth living. Like, it's like, and that's just her own a certain amount of narcissism and insensitivity. So it's like a perfect balance of a good teenager that also has their, their blind

Sean: 59:24

spots. and, and and I just want to say one thing about something you said, which was the sweetness. And I, that's one of the things I love about the show is that is so sweet. Right? It is so sweet. Without ever being trickily or like purposely overwhelming or fake or like nineties sitcom. It just is. They're just, you like them,

Andy: 59:46

And I think that is really the heart of why this be, is become like this evergreen, this, this show that's, that's immortal. I mean

Sean: 59:56

top 10,000, it didn't make the list.

Andy: 59:57

I mean, I understand that, that one list, the top 10,000 shows that you're, you're constantly frequenting and looking for your favorite shows,

Sean: 1:00:05

it never changes.

Andy: 1:00:06

every time you, it's interesting, every time you state, like, come on top 10,000 you know, it's just like, is what you're saying is, and I think it's not just the sweetness, but it's also. that it's given to us in a realistic, organic fashion that we can believe. Right. Whereas

Sean: 1:00:25

Right, that's what it is. It's believable

Andy: 1:00:26

It's when it's this sort of uh, engineered sweetness, you know, we might be on board. But at a certain point, the, the, the, the sort of the slack we would give a show like that runs out cuz it's just like, all right, well, you know, I don't really buy this as reality anymore. Whereas this, it's like you buy any sweet moment because we've also seen this fucking horrible stuff happen to

Sean: 1:00:49

to'em. Right? And, and you know, that is one of the things that has always bothered me and shows that I even have worked on of like sitcom writers going, well this is how people behave. And it's like, no, it's not. It is not how people It is how you think these people need to behave to serve your story. And in this show, they really do a good job of capturing the way that people behave. Thanks very much. Everybody. Goodbye.

Andy: 1:01:16

You felt like you were, I should have stepped in and helped you cause I saw something happening in your eyes. It's that

Sean: 1:01:21

Uh, okay. So now we're back to. Basically high noon, Sam and, and, and, or sorry, I keep calling him Sam because Sam Levine, but,

Andy: 1:01:30

It's a difficult part of breaking down the

Sean: 1:01:31

show. N Neil and Bill in slow motion walking to their showdown, right. With Alan.

Andy: 1:01:38

It too, by the way, again, Renegade by Sticks, which I had forgotten, which is in it. Yeah. And it's just so when I use that in something for myself, please don't judge me for it cuz it's so perfect. Right. I had no memory of that.

Sean: 1:01:52

Right. And, and it's just such a funny moment of them, like on their way to do what this guy told them to do, to fight Alan and stick up for Sam. And then Colin shows up, the other dude from the spiritual mentor, like the, the mentors, like they're literally. You know, when you read like old screenwriting stuff, it's like, and then the hero meets a mentor who shows him, you know, then Luke meets OB one Kenobi, and this is their Obi one Kenobi is these two fucking idiots. And Colin shows up to say, here are all the ways you are about to die. Yeah. And and then we have the sort of climax between the two of them They wave because they think Sam is coming. It turns out it's Alan Sam is still in school on his way to meet them, to fight Alan, but he gets distracted by Cindy. So,

Andy: 1:02:45

which is amazing. Yeah. And it's, it's almost to the level of you know, Ferris Bueller turning back to say hello to the ladies as he is running home. But it's, it's somehow so realistic that he is running, he doesn't care, and he sees her and it's like, nah, it's just real, feels real

Sean: 1:03:02

Right? It's been building to this moment the whole time. He knows that his father, that's a hilarious thing. Also. His father is the biggest idiot in the world, but his father is the one who said, you always gotta ask the pr cuz nobody, nobody asked the prettiest girls to the, to the dance. So you always gotta ask him. Right. And Sam was like, well, that's what my father said. So that's what I'm gonna

Andy: 1:03:21

do. So this is, let me ask you this, because this was the only thing, and I think it makes sense in the context that you're saying of the father saying it, but there is a certain poised to Sam with this. Girl that he has a crush on that. I was like, it's very interesting that they play him that way because he seems so rattled by everything. Do you think that's just a little bit of a like, well we gotta buy that to move the thing forward? Did it felt, did it feel real to

Sean: 1:03:46

you? as watching? What, what part are you asking about? Like, which, which moment?

Andy: 1:03:51

I think in general, like the first scene we see him, he can barely get words out to Cindy Sanders. So it feels interesting to me that in this scene he actually will

Sean: 1:04:02

go through, but I think that's because of the stuff he goes through with Kim Kelly. Like he

Andy: 1:04:06

goes back to

Sean: 1:04:07

to your other point He has learned

Andy: 1:04:08

And you could argue the thing you're saying about the father, that there is this Yeah, yeah. This thing, oh, you could also argue he's in, he's in motion. He's running to a bigger threat. Right? And so that might make this threat seem like more manageable. Significant, yeah.

Sean: 1:04:24

So these guys are fighting. Alan, Sam is asking Cindy, she says she already has somebody that's taking her butt. She'll save him a dance. So it's this. Great moment of like, I didn't get what I wanted, but I got something I did try and I got something out of it by getting her to say that she was gonna save me a dance. Meanwhile, the guys who are fighting Alan, Alan is running away telling them they're gonna be dead. Right? Like he's retreating and going, you guys are dead. So

Andy: 1:04:56

amazing, so amazing. Teenager

Sean: 1:04:59

and

Andy: 1:05:00

like, doesn't drop the

Sean: 1:05:01

right? And then, and then they walk away. They're bragging to each other about how they, they kicked his ass. And then we're at the dance. The, we're in the, we're in the resolution of the whole episode.

Andy: 1:05:10

And this is what's amazing to me is like in such a, it's like in the course of like, you know, 90 seconds, two minutes. You go to first of all, there's this again going to sticks with come sail away. You have Sam asking Cindy Sanders to dance to dance. They go up. It's the, it's sort of the emotional part of Come sail away. And it's sort of that awkwardness of like, this is my first time in a slow dance with a girl. Then it kicks into the, the fast part just when

Sean: 1:05:36

he gets there.

Andy: 1:05:37

And what's interesting is that's more terrifying to him. Yeah. It's so beautiful because of course it would be more terrifying, right? But it also allows you to win an organic way, have it be more of a joyous kind of comfortable thing that then he's having fun. Then you go to to Lindsay sort of watching it and sort of her having

Sean: 1:05:57

a moment, is any of this, is any of this worth anything? I'm having an existential crisis. And then she looks over and sees, first she sees Sam come in, then she sees Eli dancing and she's like, this is, this is great. Like this is fun.

Andy: 1:06:11

What a fucking performance by Linda Cardini. In that moment, her eyes filled with tears. Yeah. She's playing both the existential crisis and the joy of seeing her brother at the same time. She's that this is at the beginning of her

Sean: 1:06:26

She might have, she might have a future in this business. I think

Andy: 1:06:29

you might be right.

Sean: 1:06:30

Yeah. We'll see. Time will tell.

Andy: 1:06:32

I'm gonna cast her in something. Yeah. um, And then you go to, even, even as she's walking away, you wrap up Jeff saying uh, and then see, you should call me Mr. Russo. You tie up that plot, she goes and asks you, Eli to dance. The, the bully. You don't need to wrap up that bully plot the bullies, making fun of'em again. Kim Kelly punches him. That's another great performance by busy at the end.

Sean: 1:06:55

Well, I love that because it's her going weight. Maybe I don't have to be such an asshole all the time. the, the defending Lindsay in that

Andy: 1:07:04

moment, the beginnings of cracking open. that she might soften on Lindsay at a certain point, and in any other pilot, it would be her actually vocalizing it in a truly way to Lindsay and Lindsay Res responding. This is just, you can see with a look the possibility that they might be friends at some point, but you can buy it back instantly in the next episode if you want to, which I believe they do.

Sean: 1:07:30

So Sam and Bill and Neil face their worst fears. Yeah. Of physical violence and rejection. Nobody gets their The bone in their nose sent through their brain. They're okay. After the fight. Sam doesn't get rejected completely. He gets something out of it. It all works out. He gets a dance with Cindy, even though it's not his date. Lindsay is having an existential crisis throughout the episode and then by the end, she's totally exuberant as she dances with Eli. So, I don't know what the fuck Garth and CER was talking about, that they needed more wins. Cuz this whole episode feels like a big win for both of them.

Andy: 1:08:10

Well he came in later, so maybe it was once you get into the, to the show proper, there was there, there was more like, can we go back to the pilot? But it is interesting cuz the pilot like was filled with wins. Mm-hmm. Anyway you know, on the whole a real stinker.

Sean: 1:08:26

Yeah. I didn't care for

Andy: 1:08:27

it. No, not not a good pilot.

Sean: 1:08:29

that you're saying that because I will say I watched it last night and I watched it again today and last night I watched it with somebody and we were kind of talking about it the whole time. So it was okay today I watched it by myself and I was bawling at the end.

Andy: 1:08:43

Oh, there you go. Yeah, I was I was shy. It is interesting for

Sean: 1:08:48

folks tune in every week to hear what makes Sean and Andy cry

Andy: 1:08:52

It is really interesting to me to see. It's like the show is the same as it was the last time I watched it, but I reacted far more emotionally this time. Right. Life's a rollercoaster isn't my point.

Sean: 1:09:04

So anyway, thanks for uh, thanks for discussing that with me.

Andy: 1:09:08

Hey Sean. Yeah, you're welcome. I thought I was gonna thank him too. I didn't thank him He's lucky I'm here.

Sean: 1:09:15

All right, so do we wanna do this one last thing or do you have anything else you wanna say?

Andy: 1:09:18

Just a, an amazing, amazing

Sean: 1:09:21

what do you think in terms

Andy: 1:09:22

history.

Sean: 1:09:23

What do you think about terms of like, what's the A story, what's the B story? Like, we always talk about that in tv, right? Like, we need this a story and this B story, and we need beats for each of those stories. What, how do you feel about that?

Andy: 1:09:34

Well, this is another thing that's so interesting about how it's structured. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, you gotta give the a story to Lindsay. And you would probably say in terms of the weightiest theme, it would be her you know, her existential crisis. But you don't know about the existential crisis until halfway through the show. The only indication is that she's sort of clearly shifted away from her usual life in a sort of, you know, dramatic fashion, but we don't know why. So it's, it's such an interestingly like structured, lightly painted thing. Another thing that's sort of, of note that I had not not mentioned is sort of the, the writing staff is filled with all of these ringers, most notably Mike White and everything that came after that Mike White did is this style of thing. Most recently uh, the white Lotus, just like these, these turns of character and plots that are like, you're not sure where it's going because he's just following. Character the whole time. He's never following plot. Right. But you would say the a story would be, Lindsay, what, what do you think about the rest of it?

Sean: 1:10:37

I, I don't know that I would say the, a story was, Lindsay,

Andy: 1:10:41

oh, I'm gonna gather my stuff now and I'm gonna leave.

Sean: 1:10:43

to me it reads as basically there are, well, it breaks down nicely because there's the Sam stuff and the Lindsay stuff, and those are the two, the freaks and the geeks. That's the two parts of the show in my mind. There's four stories in this episode. There's Sam and his friends getting bullied by Alan. Sure. Which has a very satisfying climax. There's Lindsay being forced to go to the homecoming dance. Right. Which also has a very satisfying climax. There's Sam's romance with Cindy. Mm-hmm. which ends up you. At the end. And then there's Lindsay's battle to not participate in the academic decathlon, which comes through all the way through and is something she's still refusing to do at the end, which pushes further in the direction being a freak. Like she's refusing to concede to Rosso.

Andy: 1:11:35

But here's what's sort of interesting, even about that break that, that very, very skilled breakdown. Where you're wrong. Uh, But the, but it's like, what about the Lindsay Eli plot? So it's sort of like, that's what's interesting about this is there's these paint strokes that they follow and then some of them turn into the whole plot where you wrap them up kind of at the end. And yeah, I guess you're right. Is there anything that is not,

Sean: 1:12:04

but I, I I, I would argue that the Eli stuff is part of the, is part of the Lindsay being forced to go to the homecoming dance plot, But is because she

Andy: 1:12:12

in that it has to do with Lindsay. you're splitting Lindsay having to go to the homecoming dance. And what was the other, the math thing? The math lead thing? Yeah. So if you're gonna split those two, don't you also have to split the Eli plot, even though

Sean: 1:12:25

I don't think so, because the reason she asks him in the first place is cause she knows she has to go and then things get worse. And he is pissed at her because she broke his arm and she feels badly about that. And then at the end, she ends up dancing with

Andy: 1:12:39

homecoming scene. See,

Sean: 1:12:40

I think you're the one who's wrong here.

Andy: 1:12:43

I can see that point, but it, it sort of points out the, the, the boldness of the way that they're telling stories is that these things are branches that extend from the main branch. And so the argument of like, cuz I, I, I could argue if I was a very aggressive and contentious

Sean: 1:13:02

Yeah. I don't wanna get into like a Lincoln Douglas debate, you know

Andy: 1:13:05

if I

Sean: 1:13:05

was this is McKinley High School, you know?

Andy: 1:13:07

Yeah. I was working Lincoln. Anytime he can Lincoln and Pole Pott his two heroes. But you know, it's just sort of like that. I could argue that the Eli plot you could even maybe art connect it less to the dance part of it and more to the existential crisis part of it that she's like, well maybe there's meaning in this, which is why she's so ups in like de defending this perilous person. And that's why she's so upset in the scene with Mr. Russo that it's

Sean: 1:13:37

like okay, first of all, did you even watch it? His name is Rosso,

Andy: 1:13:41

Mr. Rosso, I really undermined my point there. we'll have to edit this out. Which is by the way, is another amazing thing about the show. You'll go and me as someone who's like trying to break down the show, I'm like, oh, what was this character's name? They very casually get to characters' names. Much later they don't, do the network thing of like, here's my name and here's who I

Sean: 1:14:03

is so unnatural. You never, you never call people by their names in real life. Andy, right? Snda.

Andy: 1:14:11

I hear you, Sean.

Sean: 1:14:12

No, I, I see what you're saying. I always like to look at these stories in terms of structure, but the flip side of that is, every episode of every show is its own thing and takes its own form. And so sometimes you just can't impose a specific structure on different parts of the show. Right. And this feels like

Andy: 1:14:31

It would be interesting to go further and watch more of the episodes and then see if the structure changed.

Sean: 1:14:38

So here's here's the last thing I want to ask you. There were several other programs on television at the same time. The night that this pilot debuted programs, you say mm-hmm. I'm gonna read you the descriptions of the programs. You have to tell me. two of them are real, one of them is fake. And you have to tell me which one is real, what the name of it is, And who the star first one is this, the Adventures of a Man who mysteriously receives a newspaper the day before it is actually published, and he uses this knowledge to prevent terrible events every And you have to say whether it's real or fake and give the title of the show. Gotcha. Here's the second one. The Story of a Beloved Sea Creature involved in Rescue operations with the Coast Is it real or is it not real? what I'm reading is not the title, it is the description of the show. I don't understand. Two best friends from Sea Caucus New Jersey move into a Lower East Side tenement filled with colorful Okay, so this is, yeah. and that one actually is the description and the So just tell me which of those is real, what the names of them are, who the stars are and what

Andy: 1:15:53

Christ. I'm not gonna be able to do any of this the segment

Sean: 1:15:58

read, I'll read'em again. You tell me if it's real or fake. Okay. First one is The Adventures of a Man Who mysteriously receives a newspaper the day before it's actually published and uses this knowledge to prevent terrible events

Andy: 1:16:07

Uh, that is real. Okay. Because it's early edition. Correct. And it starred Christie Swanson. Okay. And

Sean: 1:16:15

who was the

Andy: 1:16:16

It was uh, coach Taylor. I don't remember the

Sean: 1:16:19

exact, yeah, I'll

Andy: 1:16:19

because I'm a

Sean: 1:16:20

I'll give you that one. It was Kyle, Kyle

Andy: 1:16:21

Chandler, Kyle Chandler. Oh, wow. I'm doing better than I thought. Yeah, and the only reason I know that is because I was obsessed with Christie Swanson uh, before she had a uh, you know, a change of interests in her life. Uhhuh

Sean: 1:16:34

Okay, here's the next one. The story of a beloved sea creature involved in rescue operations with the Coast Guard. Real or

Andy: 1:16:41

fake? I'm wondering if that's Seaquest Dsv. Uh, I don't know if the time is right though. So

Sean: 1:16:47

you're saying it's real?

Andy: 1:16:48

I think it's real. That

Sean: 1:16:49

is correct.

Andy: 1:16:50

And is it Roy Scheer?

Sean: 1:16:52

No. No, it is, it

Andy: 1:16:55

connecting him to Jaws

Sean: 1:16:56

Flipper, the new adventures.

Andy: 1:16:59

Oh, it wasn't Seaquest? No.

Sean: 1:17:00

Uh, And then the third one obviously is fake. Two best This was in 99. it was in like its third or fourth season at

Andy: 1:17:07

point. What was it called?

Sean: 1:17:08

Flipper New Adventures. And can you name the star and it's not Roy Scheider.

Andy: 1:17:15

Give me a hint.

Sean: 1:17:17

It's Flipper.

Andy: 1:17:18

Oh, was dumb.

Sean: 1:17:20

Doesn't seem that hard.

Andy: 1:17:21

I don't Okay. Thought you were, And then the last who else is in it?

Sean: 1:17:24

I have no

Andy: 1:17:24

idea. Ah, so Mr. Big Shot.

Sean: 1:17:26

No, no, no. When I get, when I write the questions, I get to say whatever I want.

Andy: 1:17:29

You sure do. this is, this Second is, let's make Andy look like an idiot. But I feel like I I came off pretty good with early

Sean: 1:17:36

audition. The thing about Flipper New adventures was they recast the entire show every season. Like Flipper was always involved with a new group of

Andy: 1:17:42

He really was the star of the show. I, I, and I've heard that's because he was very difficult and was just like, get rid of those

Sean: 1:17:47

people. Well, they always told Flipper never work with people or Phish Oh,

Andy: 1:17:54

So,

Sean: 1:17:55

two, two best friends from Sea Caucus New Jersey move into a Lower East Side tenement filled with colorful residents. That show is not real.

Andy: 1:18:04

That's your pilot that you've

Sean: 1:18:05

the title? What is the title and who are the stars? see. And you have cart blanche here because it's not real, so you can call it anything and you can cast anyone as two best friends from Sea Caucus, New Jersey. I would not cast Matt Damon and Ben Affleck, cuz they already played best friends from Boston. But that's can

Andy: 1:18:21

we get them it's stars? Uh, Freddie Prince Jr. Mm-hmm. and uh, McCauley Calkin.

Sean: 1:18:29

Great I would watch

Andy: 1:18:32

that. What else do I have to come up with? It's the title? The title Two Best Friends from Secka.

Sean: 1:18:37

I say Cka Sea because I think it's a funnier pronunciation, which is

Andy: 1:18:41

important. right? Than it is Cak Dsv

Sean: 1:18:46

That is the actual title of my pilot that I

Andy: 1:18:48

great. Oh,

Sean: 1:18:49

Alright,

Andy: 1:18:49

you're just trying to get me to title your, your, your pilot.

Sean: 1:18:51

I didn't have one. I needed one. So this whole podcast was working up Thank you for That's our show folks. Thank you so much for listening. We will be releasing episodes of this podcast on the first and third Sunday of each month going forward. So look forward to that. Also follow us on social media. At copilots TV. And if you're wondering where to watch the pilots that we're discussing, just check the show notes. We'll always have some indication of where you'll be able to find any of the pilots we watch, even the more obscure

Andy: 1:19:29

ones. And you like our show or do you love our show? Uh, if you could give us a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it would be incredibly helpful to us. Uh, we're a new, just sad and sweaty, struggling, failing podcast. That's not how I see it. I think we're doing fine. Okay. Well, we each have our own perspective. Uh, and if you do give us that five star review, you will get your pilot's wings. We're also going to read a couple of these reviews. In each episode to express our gratitude.

Sean: 1:20:01

So you're going to send me wings in the, in the mail or how, how am I going to get these wings? Oh,

Andy: 1:20:06

you're not, you know, we're not sending or doing anything. We're incredibly lazy, but you can print out your own if you want, uh, on a 3d printer or, uh, you know, send away to some kind of mercantile, uh, company.

Sean: 1:20:17

I don't even know what that means. Uh, what if I hate your show? If

Andy: 1:20:22

you hate our show, Sean, you can also just leave us five stars, uh, on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and you're in, doesn't matter what you write, you can write anything you want in the comment.

Sean: 1:20:31

And you might read my comment, even if I write something incredibly negative.

Andy: 1:20:35

I mean, if it's funny. Or, you know, if we're just feeling incredibly bad about ourselves that day. Sure. Great. That sounds fair. So that's it. That's the end of our first show. Thank you all for joining us. Uh, we are coming in for a landing. We don't, I don't know if they're final sign off catchphrase yet.